USNationalist

<<You also quoted galations which tells us that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace etc. Aren't these things feelings? >> yes, i guess what i was refearing to was more feelings that are confused for being divine pressence. Like people who claim God talks to them, or even that the spirit itself testifies to what they believe. I think its easy to fool yourself into thinking God is on yourside when you feel strongly about something- even if that means somthing as crazy as the killing of abortion doctors.

Ray- I believe the majority of your questions can be answerd by the topic description. "maybe". I am confident that i am correct in what i believe right now- but i will not say that there may be something i dont know. I feel its never wise to rule out certain possibilities. Expecialy when, as a human, i am subject to human fallacy- which may be preventing me from knowing the truth. So while im very confident in what i believe- i couldnt with 100% certainity say that i will never change my mind.

Thats right, it is my choice. And interestingly enough to note. The Terestial Kingdom, inwhich i will end up residing should your faith be true- is essentialy, minus the company of one of the personages of God, the very same heaven i plan to go to anyway. So im not really loseing anything that matters to me by giving up chances for celestial glory.

I hadnt made my final opinion reguarding the legitamacy of the church until recentily... or hadn't had my previous notions reaffirmed. I have many reasons for my belief- including the fact that i did say the prayer in moroni 10- 4 times. And i know the what the spirit feels like, i have been overwhelmed complelty by it before, so i knew what to look for. And can honestly say that the spirit did not testify to me the truthness of the book. Which fuels my beliefe that neither do any mormons, but they are decieved. In the bible we are always told to judge somthing by its fruits. And it talks about many being decieved. If the spirit was going to hold your hand through it there would be no need for such warnings. feelings can be decieving- things must be judged by their fruits- not the feelings they might inspire in you

I wrote this last night after watching a special on mormon missionaries on PBS. I am also convinced in my own heart that the LDS church is not the restored church of God and that their new teachings and docrtines are false. However all that is not to say that they are not a saved people.--------- MORMONISM In the bible we are told repeatedly to judge faith, teachers and prophets by their fruits. The fruits of the LDS church are the same fruits of the spirit talk about in Galatians 5:22-26 (22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another) So then how can they be considered wicked? In 1John 4:15 it says "15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." Don’t Mormons make that very confession? It is just as much the focal point of their religion as it is our own. So then in believing that our own word of God is true- through the confession of Christ made by the Mormons, they are in God and he in them. Romans 8:1 says "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." So then how do we justify our condemnation of the LDS faithful? Romans 10:9-10 (9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ), Acts 16:30-31 (30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house) And John 3:16 (16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.) Tell us beyond a shadow of a doubt that salvation is gained through faith in Jesus Christ. Mormons share that very same faith we do. There are, many warnings in the bible of false Christ’s, false prophets and false teachers (2John 1:7, Mark 13:6, Galatians 1:9, 2Tim 4:3-4, 1John 2:22, Acts 4:12, Colossians 2:8, Mathew 24:23-26, 2Corninthians 11:13-14, 2Peter 2:1-3 & 10-22, Mathew 7:15-20, Galatians 5:4 and Galatians 1:8-9) all of which warn us of the iniquities that they will promote. And that we will know them by their fruits. But none of those warnings can be linked to the works of the LDS church. What iniquities do they promote? We are justified by faith in Christ, our works bring us no righteousness. We are saved by belief in Christ and by seeking to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. So how can so many Christians judge their brothers in Christ because of, none other then, works? And the works which they judge are not even those which might bring condemnation, such as teachings of iniquity in which things such as greed or sexual immorality (i.e. the rainbow church) are not condemnd. Instead they judge them for differences in opinions of religious ordinances. In Romans 14 we are taught by the apostle Paul that those are not to be fought over amongst ourselves. Ordinances of faith are not cause for conflict in the body of Christ. We will all be judged according to our own faith by God. "12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." –Romans 14:12-13 The strife between the LDS church and the rest of Christianity is not of God. We should accept them as brothers in Christ and fellow heirs to Gods Kingdom.

<<Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? Why would a god "pervert" a human on purpose, but then "test" him to see if he'll obey him? That seems mean and nasty to me. It doesn't make any sense.>> .....how can you expect someone to make the right choice when there isnt a wrong one?

anti- not a big deal if animals do it. Just like its not a big deal for them to have multiple partners.... not marry and get their constant fornicate on. It simply means it was an intended demon intended for some people to have to conqure. We are called to resist the lusts of the flesh- meaning there has to be somthing we are resisting. Just try thinking- im sure it will make since to you after a little bit.

why would gay animals proove that gay is ok? Its no doubt some people have homo urges and some dont. We all have our different demons. The very nature of humanity is headonism. The hole point of being christian is seperateing ourselves for the flesh and living life by the spirit. If spiritual living was what was natural for us there wouldnt be sin.

....on a lighter note (dont know if it was said) the killers name was Joeseph Smith Antishock let me ask you somthing-- how could you let something like this happen? What do you do to protect children? Do you help out in information programs? Self defence classes for children? How can you accuse God of failing to live up to a moral standard of your creation if your not living up to it?

Paul- Obviously we dont know if these mircales exsisted, but the legitmacy of biblical claims, such as the setting for the story, give a reasonable foundation for the faith we have that those miracles happend. It is foolishness to have faith in a religion that would tell you things fall up or that pigs fly when it is obviously not the case. Maybe a little less obviously- the claims of the mormon church leave the same foundation for placeing its members faith upon. Example: USN 2:3-4 "And the lord healed many people that day, and when the people blew soap bubbles in celebration of the miricals, in new york city, they did float until they poped, or ran into something, be it the ground, another person, maybe an animal, or until hit by a stick." CrazyCraroo 5:45-48 "And the lord healed many people that day, and when the people blew soap bubbles in celebration of the mircicals, in atlantis 4 million miles below the sea, they did not pop even if they ran into something, be it the ground, another merman, maybe a fish, or even poked by a might trident. And those bubbles forever have, and shall remain unpopable." In both the miricle is what cant be proven. But one provieds foundation for a faith, while the others foundation is just as fair fetched as the faith itself. Faith without foundation is misplaced faith. The mormon faith ofers no more foundation for their beliefs then i could if i made up my own religion. Except i may have more- since i would use places that actualy exsist

<<and to believe in a God that is unfair to the people who never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sentences them to eternal damnation for being ignorant or skeptical (not evil).>> -It seems you have an issue of pride to deal with. Your obviously unable to accept the fact that man, in its nature, is evil. And that we all do evil things. Makeing us unworthy of heaven. Also, if you believe so strongly in morals, but no God then how do you feel about relitive morality? Personaly i believe all morals are relative- but secondary to those set before us by God- which are universal. Im sure you think murder is immoral, as so does my God- but what of someone who does not? What if they define their own morality. It seems to me your beliefe will send a child molester, rapest, murder, to heaven- as long as he keeps a clean consious about it. One man has no right to tell another what is immoral and what is not- because their since of morality, a creation of man, is in no way superior or more legitamate then anyone elses. The only one who has a right to dictate morality is God- everyone else who would try to do that is simply imposeing something of their creation onto someone else- when their "refined' since of morality is really no better then anyone elses, except in their own mind. We are all immoral, you cant fool youself into thinking you are a moral person if you live by morals of your own creation. God has dictated morality, we have all fallen short of that morality. Christ is the only way to get to heaven. If we could achieve salvation without him- then why would he have had to die for us?

<<I take it a step further than USN, and I'll say that God doesn't care if we believe in Christ, as long as we are moral.>> <<I agree with Trident that "works" are not necessary for Salvation.>> -those 2 seem contrary to each other. And thats totaly bogus the not believing in christ thing. Thats just your own opinion- how can you expect that to really mean anything? Christ is the only thing that matters- if you dont bleive in him and that he died for the remision of your sin your not saved. Simple as that.

<<USN, Let's pretend you and I knew a guy named Sam. You describe Sam as 6'1, 210lbs, with a masters degree in science, who had 3 kids, and a wife, who was born in Dallas. I describe him as 5'6, 120lbs, who dropped out of school at 16 yrs old, who had a gay lover. would you say we're talking about the same person? That's basically what's happening here.>> -to continue your story. In reguards of contacting him we have the same adress and phone number. And if he was to walk by, both of us could point him out. And thats whats happening here. One holds misconceptions about someone- but still beleives in that same someone. <<I can show you where the bible directly refutes mormon doctrine and where it refutes how mormonism came into existance.>> -i believe i could so the same. Which is why im not a mormon. I do believe many of its doctrines to be false. <<I can show you numerous spots where the bible says to avoid what mormonism currently presents.>> -This i would like you to show me if you have time. <<Mormons believe they are saved by grace after they've done all they can do. The bible says we are saved by grace alone. That is quite a big difference.>> -we are saved by grace through faith. and faith is dead without works. That mormon doctrine seems simply to be implying we are saved by grace through living faith. Which is pretty much saying the same thing as you and i believe. The bible says that we would recognize the false christs or churches by their fruits. It seems to me that the LDS faith bears the same fruits of the spirit that the non LDS church does. Personaly i think God care what different little beliefs and notions we hold, in Romans 14 it says that none of that is worth argueing and causesing contention over because all that matters is if they are obeying his 2 commandments. If anything i would say God frowns upon the open hatred many non LDS show towards the LDS and visa versa.

Trident- What is it that would lead you to think that the LDS are unsaved? They believe in the same jesus as we do (whether or not the LDS or non LDS hold an misconceptions about him) and believe they are saved by grace through faith in that christ. Show me one spot in the bible that would state that a mormon fails to meet any requirement for salvation. The LDS church, just like the non LDS church have the same fruits of the spirit and do not teach any doctrines of iniquity. Whether or not they are are the true church, which in my opinion they are not- any more then i am apart of the true church- the body of christ, does not have any bearings on their salvation. If you can think of an actual reason, SUPPOTED BY SCRIPTURE (i know how hard that can be for you) and not just your opinions, why a mormon wouldnt be saved id be glad to hear it.

I agree with antishock. Actual History of a civilization is not a sign, but a foundation for faith. Mormons may as well believe that things fall up- your notions of absoloute truth are just a cover up for lack of plausability. Seeing God is one thing, finding an ancient city where its supposed to according to your scriptures is different.

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

What about steel? i dont think they had that alloy back then. i think ive heard of the BoM mentioning steel... whats the deal there? does it? did steel exsist then? is there any evidence of steel (like been dug up or somthing) in the south americas?

Is there any mention of horses in the BoM? If there are, I thought there were no horses in the americas until the spanish brought them over.

goodtimes- thank you

If i exsisted in the spirit world- i dont remember any of it. When i go the next stage of life will those memories return to me? Or will i lose the ones from this life to? Just curious

<<Why would the fact that one of the two faiths is wrong cause you to question the method by which members of those faiths choose to adhere to one or the other? >> -because if you say the holy gohst told you your church is the one true one and you use that to validate your faith but a false church says that the holy gohst also told them they are the true church obviously that claim that the holy gohst has validated either is suspect. They believe just as strongly and in the same way as you that their church is true because the holy gohst told them so- but you say its false anyway. what is the difference between your claims? What makes yours valid and theirs not? Personaly it is obvious to me that in this example alone the testimonies people get from the prayer of moroni are completely unrealiable if not bogus and are no means to determine if ones faith is valid.

Kevin- ill try to clarify..... not good at it. Many things i say can only really be understood by me, heh. -Ok so there is one true church, one of them is false. And has a false pophet. Both RLDS and LDS have prayed, in the manner that moroni told them to.... chapter 10 i think. And both will claim that the spirit has told them their faith is true. But if one of the 2 churches is false, then doesnt that call into question the hole idea of trying to verify your faith with that prayer? If RLDS can claim to have the same testimonies that the spirit told them their church is true that the LDS curch can, but still be the false church, wouldnt that be cause to questions whether it is a legitamate way to determine if your faith is true?

I told the missionaries i wouild keep an open mind and i intend to. And have been praying reguarding that. It has been my long standing belief that the LDS church is not the restored church and that its claims of being the one true church are false. Many of their doctrine seem contrary to biblical doctrines, or are at least new, and im not keen to those either. But if it is the true church it seems to be that i would want to be aparty to it. heh <<As such, they believe that each church has leaders that are called by God, whether they call themselves prophets or not.>> -thats pretty much what i believe. Jenda- at one time they did make the claim even if they don't now. If thats true, either it was a false claim or the LDS claim is a flase claim. Kevin seemed to understand what i was saying. If one of you is wrong, what defence do you use to support the validity of your prophets, that can not be used just as easily by the opposition? And what claims of opposition can you make agaisnt them that cant be made agaisnt you? Both your teams have done the moroni prayer scene i imagine. But if one of you is wrong then wouldnt that take away from the "testimonies" that mormons hold from the perseieved confirmation of the spirit that their faith is true? Seems to me is someone says God said the same thing to them that he did to you about his faith being true, when your faiths are in opposition that both testimonies should be questioned. I have a real problem with LDS trying to validate their faith in that manner.... maybe its just me.

The missionaries invited me. Blessed- But dont you consider the LDS church to be false? and visa versa? If God is speaking to President Hinkly wouldnt that deminish the legitamacy of the RLDS claims that prophets must be desendants of JS? And wouldnt God speaking to President Grant McMurry deminish the claims of the LDS that their prophets are the true ones?

It is my personal opinion that there are no "prophets" anymore. But i was at a mormon church today and they were talking about the reaons they have prophets. So my question is, how do the LDS and RLDS view each others prophets? They both claim that God communicates his will through them, so what makes one side their faith has legitamate prophets and the others are false?