bay2boy
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Posts posted by bay2boy
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On a similar note one theory I picked up somewhere along the way is that the real problem with Satan's plan is everyone would have remained in a "garden" state not knowing good and evil, because without agency to choose evil... sorrow could never enter the world, and without sorrow we couldn't understand joy. This is contrary to the plan of happiness because happiness would not be the end result for any of God's children.
Are we not to believe that procreation cannot exist while in a garden state? Satan should be aware of this obviously. Or is there more to it than that?
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I'm sure someone will dig out some quotes and give me an apostolic smack-down, but I wonder . . .
I went back to the context of Abraham 3:37--origin of the "here I am, send me/Here I am, send me/I will send the first". We typically read this as Jehovah and Lucifer offering to be the savior. But on a closer reading, it seems that Jehovah (vv. 24-26) hatches the plan to go down, create an earth, and prove mankind. Then "The Lord"--in this context, the Father?--says "OK, who, exactly, will go down and do this?", and you get both Jehovah and Lucifer volunteering--for the role of creator, not (explicitly) for the role of savior.
I've always taken it for granted that Lucifer understood that the roles of Creator and Savior were a package deal. But what if he never even understood the plan of salvation well enough to know that an Atonement would be possible?
Additionally, I always wonder how Satan planned on removing something as eternal as agency. I tried to tie that with him being the creator, referring to your comment, but I'm not sure.
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Satan's plan was to destroy G-d's covenant of marriage from the very beginning and he is still about it today.
The Traveler
Very interesting take. I never thought about it in terms of their marriage covenant. Thanks for that insight.
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No, they don't claim to officially represent the church.
I think the point is that anyone or any group that stands up and explicitly says "I'm a Mormon and we __________" will certainly represent the church in some way and to some people. It comes down to what you mean by represent I guess.
Yes that's what I mean. I don't mean they are officially representing the church but when you hold up a large banner that says "Mormons building bridges" or something of the like, you are representing your faith in some fashion. Why do you need to label yourself as a Mormon? Why can't you just walk in the parade and offer your support as a human. The "Mormon Church" does not support that lifestyle. Period. In a sense, its almost a slap in the face of the LGBT community marching in their pride parade. You are saying, "We love you. We want you to stop doing what you're doing so you can return to the fold because we know that will make you happy. In the meantime, to show our love, we're going to march in your PRIDE parade, key word "Pride". We have no pride in their lifestyle or at least any member of the church should not express pride in that lifestyle. There are other ways of showing you love them.
We love porn stars too but we're not going to go to the adult convention in Vegas and hold up banners saying "Mormons Building Bridges".
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This reminds me of the members of the Church who march in gay pride parades REPRESENTING THE CHURCH. I don't like people representing me and my faith while celebrating the gay lifestyle. You can march and cheer all you want but don't go representing the Church, an organization that would love nothing more than to see that lifestyle disappear.
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I have a question concerning the following scripture.
Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.
When you compare this scripture to what we learn in the temple about Satan doing what was done on other worlds, it seems Satan knew the plan and was only doing what was being done on other worlds. Many will say that Satan was duped thinking he was ruining the plan. However, what if he already knew the plan but just wanted to be the instigator of Adam and Eve transgressing the law.
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I know that I'm happy and at peace when I am being faithful to the commandments. I also know I am not happy in sin. What else is there?
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I wouldn't be at all surprised when judgement day comes and Ghandi and Mother Theresa, both unmarried on earth walk into the Celestial Mansion. Just like I wouldn't be surprised if somehow Brigham Young, sealed to several spouses, gets barred from it. This is simply not something we are qualified to judge.
You just said we shouldn't judge then in the same breath say you wouldn't be surprised if Brigham Young doesnt make it to the cel. kingdom. Ummmm. bit of judgement?
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Elder Oaks' book "Pure in Heart" is a great read revolving around why we obey and our true intents. Highly recommended.
We all obey for different reasons. As long as love is the reason we are striving for, the Lord knows where our hearts our.
Im glad the church (at least in my experience) does not use fear to motivate as others might. This is the reason I was never a huge fan of the book Miracle of Forgiveness as I fealt it left you overwelmed with fear and hopelessness sometimes.
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Some have mentioned that we bring Satan in with us because of our thoughts and desires. Does every negative thought come from the devil? Is he the source of every negative desire that we have? If and when he is bound, will evil be eradicated?
We can be in the temple and have immoral/negative thoughts. Does this mean Satan is automatically there with us?
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Can I get a clarification? What do you mean by physical separation?
As far as physical separation..there is a separation between spirit paradise and spirit prison. God and Jesus Christ will not visit those in spirit prison. So there is that separation.
Maybe there isnt a separation but there are places like temples in the spirit world where the Lord can go and visit his spirit children in paradise. Long shot?
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"And there's the rub. A skeptic will always find a reason to not believe."
There is nothing wrong with questioning or being skeptical.
Everyone has to come to that place where they put complete trust in the Lord for an answer having a completely open mind and heart. (Moroni's promise basically)
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Joseph Smith was called not only as a prophet but a The Prophet to usher in the last dispensation of the fullness of times. Why shouldn't he be prophesied of? I have no doubt that it is true. As mentioned before, it comes down to your testimony of Joseph Smith and the writings he has brought forth.
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Traveler,
Do you really expect members of the church of investigators to become authorities on every piece of doctrine we claim to believe? Must I read every book written about Joseph Smith to finally earn the privelege of asking concerning whether he was a prophet or not? I agree we must put forth the effort but where do we draw the line?
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Sorry, was this "14 points" brought up in a recent general conference? Like October's? If so I wonder what prompted them to resurface this list in the first place.
I don't have a problem with it but I can see how it appears to be somewhat Letter-of-the-law-ish to some people. Now if people started nailing this list above their mantels next to the Proclamation to the Family I'd start to wonder a bit.
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The law of justice had to be satisfied. Who better to judge us than our Savior who has experienced everything we have or could experience? (rhetorical)
You're right. So perhaps him being our judge is not because he has any insight God doesn't have but because it would be better for us....or something along those lines.
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I understand the logic that God knows everything. I just wonder why Christ must act as judge and plea our case when it is already a done deal in Gods mind. Maybe Im missing something. I can see why it was necessary for Christ to pay the price for our shortcomings but the other two jobs he has seem redundant in a way.
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I know the title of this thread sounds blasphemous but I am not going for shock value or attempting to undermine the power and Omniscience of God. My question is this:
Because Christ suffered for our sins,pain,temptations,etc. He is the ultimate mediator and judge. Does he essentialy know more about us than God the Father only because he experienced those things first hand?
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And what about those who were never taught the truth. They are/will be in prison. There is no hope for them? Doesn't make sense to me.All I know is that if you are sent to spirit prison that pretty much means you had gone through a pretty long period of darkness in your life that you refused to get out of and spent years denying God and his teachings that you at one time knew were right. In spirit prison you haven't had your final judgment yet but you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom through Spirit Prison. The most you have to look forward to is a Terrestrial Life, which is of honorable people brighter than the Telestial Kingdom and hell, but still not with God.
Can you be a "good" member of the Church and not want to go to church?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I'm sure it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that many members of the church feel this way. The church requires a lot of it's members.
Firstly, the biggest reason we go to church is to renew our covenants through the sacrament so you, of course, have to be present for that.
Secondly, the Lord needs us to fellowship other members and investigators to further his work. It doesn't mean you have to become everyone's best friend. But, it does require that we step out of our comfort zone every once in a while and make sure our brothers and sisters feel welcome. Can you imagine if everyone stopped going to church and relied only on their own volition to live the gospel? You might be fine, but a lot of people (most people) would fall away.
Lastly. Sometimes, especially if you are well read, you feel like you aren't getting much out of the lessons, talks, etc. because you've heard it all before and it just feels so basic and fundamental. Just remember; you may be smart, but, the spirit is smarter. If you would allow the spirit to be a part of your church going experience, He will teach you things you never knew or things you need to be reminded of, regardless of the subject matter.
Just a few thoughts. He knows its a sacrifice for you to go and I really think you will be blessed for it. Maybe blessings that come at the hands of other members.