Magus
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Posts posted by Magus
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@prisonchaplain:
i understand why you feel there was a great deal of political pressure on the Church about the blacks and the priesthood thing.
but i think the bigger pressure was just the practicality of it. the Church was having serious issues growing in areas around the world where you were having to get nitty gritty with someone's racial background. it was making things really complicated.
either way, i believe that Kimball and others of the Prophets were sincere when they say that they went to the Lord many times over the previous decades to ask the Lord's will on this matter (when there wasn't political pressure). I also believe the accounts of a powerful spiritual, even pentacostal experience in the temple when they received the answer that blacks could now have the priesthood.
I understand the cynicism about letting the Church eventually recognizing gay marriage. But on faith, I'm gonna have to disagree about the eventuality of this happening. Blacks receiving the priesthood was not a MORAL issue, it was a tactical issue that was prophecied would eventually happen anyway (by Brigham Young no less). But the issue of gay marriage is indeed a MORAL issue, and I do not think the Church will bend on this. I think the times are coming when the USA, culturally and politically, is going to become quite weak, if not collapse, and the political kingdom of Zion is going to begin its rise and mark the line in the sand between black and white.
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I'm just going to go with my gut on this one and tell you what I know from personal experience.
There are things in my life that I have truly repented of, and know that I repented of, because the Holy Ghost confirmed to me that I had been forgiven, washed over me and cleansed me. I felt new and very literally spiritually reborn. My guilt was swept away. These were truly miraculous experiences.
It would seem to me that the crux of your problem with not forgiving yourself is that you still feel guilty. Would that be correct?
If so, then the solution would seem to be that you need to get rid of your guilt. You need to feel like a new person.
In which case, it would seem to me that the best, ultimate solution would be for the Holy Ghost to cleanse you heart and soul, to sweep your guilt away, to make you feel new, reborn and clean again.
I am presuming this has not happened to you, at least not in any defining way. Would I be correct?
If so, the only thing I can recommend is serious, intense, prolonged prayer and fasting for this miracle to occur. Pouring your heart out to the Lord multiple times a day, waiting and listening, asking and knocking for the confirmation, for the miracle, and accompanying it with regular fasting. Of course, be careful not to harm your health in so doing.
I can testify that if you seek the miracle diligently and steadfastly - it will come and the Lord will cleanse you. It will likely be tough - but just be patient and persist, persist and persist. Ask the Lord to make you whole again. He will. Miracles are often hard to come by - but if you want them badly enough and do not give up in the face of despair - they come. If that is the path you choose, I wish you the best.
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They key words of course, are "through the proper channels" and "properly".
The bottom line is this:
The moment you seek to compel the Church to conform to your notions of propriety, you become an ark steadier. Even when done with the very best and noblest of intentions, this is playing with fire.
The moment we begin (even in our own minds) to aggrandize ourselves and our judgement over those of the Brethren, we are on the short bus to apostacy.
The moment we seek to use outside influence to compel the Church, we have- deliberately and unavoidably separated ourselves from the body of the Church.
By allying ourselves with those foreign to the body of believers, we not only alienate ourselves from our brothers and sisters and from the Holy Ghost, we become a cancer of disunity, pride, and faithlessness.
Even the supposed war "on the culture of the Church" is a deliberate and prideful division of the brethren and sisters.
It is irrretrievably and inescapably a distinction between "those who know better" and "those who do not".
It is a means by which we adjudge and annoint ourselves as better and "more enlightened" than those naive rubes who simply go along with tide...
The moment that we adjudge ourselves better than our brethren and sisters, we are becoming prideful and lifted up in our hearts. These are the very sorts of divisions that we are warned about repeatedly in Scripture.
The presumption that "fairness" and "justice" can only come to the Church through our actions- or that of outside agitators- is to deny that Christ stands at the head of his Church.
It is the (unwarranted) assumption (and presumption) that Christ cannot or will not bring about that same "justice" or "fairness" unless we are there to jog his elbow.
That is arrogance.
That is presumption.
That is hubris.
It is NOT the spirit of the humble disciple that we as followers of Christ are supposed to cultivate in our countenance.
The moment that our pretensions and predilections become more important to us than obedience and unity in Christ, we cease to be his disciples.
When we preach our own prejudices and presumptions over the counsel of the Brethren annointed by Christ, we cease to be his servants and become our own.
To cling to such a gospel is to reveal a deep and fundamental lack of faith in Christ's guidance, his judgment, and his justice. It is an intrinsic assumption that our wisdom, our "timing", or our sense of propriety is superior to that of the Savior.
To preach such a gospel is to undermine the very foundations of this Church, and to attempt to bring shame and discredit upon those whom God has chosen.
And that makes us an enemy not only to the Church, but to the God who has established, guides, and claims it as his own.
I agree.
But it's interesting to point out that sometimes there are leaders who stop serving God and start serving themselves as well. They are not immune to sin or corruption. They are human.
For example, I sustained my mission president. But the dude had some serious flaws. For example, lying to missionaries in interviews in order to try and trick them to get a confession out of them over rather trivial mission matters. That is straight up unethical as a priesthood leader. I could go on. The man was entitled to revelation. I am sure that at times he received it. But I am positive he did not receive it all the time, and I am positive that at times he was quite in error as well, and harmed the mission, as well as individual missionaries.
I can make that observation and react accordingly without being an apostate or having any pride in my heart.
Furthermore - yes, this is Christ's Church and he is at its head. It is ultimately guided by him. But exactly how much every detail is guided is another matter. I can say for certain that God let's us lead and lets us make mistakes - very often. The 116 pages of the Book of Lehi is a prime example. There are many others.
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I think the core of Vort's question can be summed up as... How do we sustain a leader(s) (for those who have covenanted to do so) when we have every reason to think they are wrong or in error on a matter.
To me, sustaining a leader means the following:
1.) I recognize their right to receive revelation
2.) if I disagree with them, I express that disagreement properly.
3.) if I know something that would disqualify them to be in their leadership position, I also share that information through the proper channels.
I have been vocal about my disagreements with certain Church leaders before. I have an opinion, I express it. But that doesn't mean I don't sustain them as leaders.
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I would clarify, honestly. It's possible that she's just disillusioned now that the honeymoon period is over. She might love you, but just doesn't find herself in love with you, which is fine.
Yeah - makes me wonder if the wife knows what "love" really is?
The thrilling romantic feelings of "in love" seem like something often dependent on circumstances that bring those feelings out. When the honeymoon period is over, it's harder to feel those same feelings - but they can certainly be brought out again under the right conditions, especially if you actually do love the person. I don't think anyone feels the "in love" feelings on a constant basis over the course of a marriage. If anyone does, they might only be in romance novels or works of fiction.
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I would argue that a third path would be that there is truth, but that there is no "true Church", just God, and there are many paths to heaven.
It's actually a pretty common belief amongst people who don't choose any particular religion but still believe in God.
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that's terrible.
i feel bad for everyone involved.
i wonder what the beef was that Chadd had with his grandparents?
I work as a 911 operator and I get a lot of domestic violence related calls, so it feels kind of familiar in a way. these types of things can often deal with a lot of complex emotions and histories of family drama.
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i'm wondering what the sentence was.
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It's been a long time, but it had to do with the companion reading the anti-Mormon literature and leaving. It was a little too ...... Don't have the word for it at the moment.
My feeling was something like, "If I were an anti-Mormon wanting to make fun of Mormons' view of apostasy and hiding it, this is the scene I would write." I started to wonder if this was some guy who thought marketing to Mormons would be easy and could use it as a stepping stone to other things.
yeah, i can see what you mean.
in light of how things turned out with Dutcher, it's also a pretty interesting scene.
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awesome, what mission is he going to?
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Seriously. You, me, MOE, and Eowyn all seem to agree on the same point in this thread. Has that ever happened?
I think planets are aligning somewhere and there are witnesses in Jerusalem.
yeah yeah, i know, i'm a big bad meanie.
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@ MorningStar
what part?
on a side note, i never saw God's Army 2.
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what is bible beltize?
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Oh, States of Grace was/is my favorite of all his movies!
Time for a thread hi-jack, and if ya'll will pardon me for name dropping...
Many years back, I lived in Utah, and I belonged to a home-school group. I was the director of the theater group..we were working on a play and a new family joined our group...
You guessed it Richard Dutcher's family.
CAn you imagine how intimidating that was? To direct a little home-school play when Richard Dutcher's kids are in it? Yikes.
Fortunately for me, his wife was willing to help and she is also very talented. Good times home schooling! that sounds like a blast. theatre and home-schooling and the dutchers.
i hope he and his family are all doing alright.
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I see where both are coming from. But it happens. We've seen ministers lose their faith. An atheist group even has a "support group" for ministers who no longer believe (career transition, etc.). One rather famous mega-church pastor (former) exorcised a demon from a member. He now says he created the idea of the demon in the woman's mind, and that there is no literal devil. He's become a Universalist (believes everyone will be saved). Then, of course, there are the many sincere evangelicals who become LDS.
It's so easy to judge, to condemn, to second guess why people abandon their faith (or convert to another). I sympathize with the inclination to say their faith was never deep, never well-thought out, that they were believers "in name only" etc. The one good thing about them officially leave is that they cast aside all pretension. They know where they stand. Ironically, there's more hope for apostates than there is for hypocrites.
haha, i like that quote, about the more hope for apostates than hypocrites. Good one, I'mma use that sometime.
Yeah, I know, it is easy to judge.
Maybe it had something to do with him on an emotional level deep down. There were other things probably going on in his family life that were causing discord. And maybe the Church wasn't filling his wants. Who knows.
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Your thread title reminded me of:
Welcome! :)
That was freakin awesome. I wish I could do that.
Though actually, my thread title is an Austin Powers reference.
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Welcome! My advice is: Don't give your name out. Too many crazies and weirdos out there.
tell me about it, I'm one of them
Nah, actually I think it would be nice to actually be totally (well, mostly) anonymous on a board for once.
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I'm not even LDS and I feel bad that the same soul that could help create States of Grace would end of losing faith altogether--enough to cost him his marriage, even.
yeah, I think that's actually the worst part of it.
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Well...we don't really know what led to or why he made the choice he did.....it's all speculation. I very much doubt that it was anything to do with JS per se....perhaps just an excuse to make an exit and explore Babylon. I hope he makes it back...
lol, exploring Babylon I could understand at least.
Yeah, I dunno. I still respect him as a person and film maker, of course. Just a shame, that's all.
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The tone of your entire post.
Yeah, I know I sounded mean. Kinda like when people tell me I think I'm better than other people, that sounds mean to me too.
Anyway, I'm being nice now. Olive branches are extended. Truce.
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I simply mean that I don't know the whole story and don't feel the need to comment further on his journey. It is arrogant to believe that any of us are immune to temptation or that at some point we couldn't slip into a state of Spiritual ambivalence.
And...as for being judgmental.....you just haven't been around long enough. I am o'plenty judgmental and heap it out on a regular basis.
heh, well, spiritual ambivilance is one thing, but having a testimony is another. You can still have a testimony and be spiritually ambivilant.
Which is why it's so perplexing to me that he would leave the Church over some intellecutal issue regarding Joseph Smith/Church history. To me - those are some of the easiest things to deal with. A big part of that is because I already have a strong testimony, so I'm armed with that when I dig into the controversial things in Church history. But even if I weren't armed with that, there are explanations for pretty much every challenge, and they are reasonable ones.
I get the feeling like maybe his testimony wasn't up to the rigors of being challenged. Like it just wasn't used to it or something, and so when challenged, it surrendered. I don't know any of this of course, but that's just kind of what it sounds like.
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Makes me think of the parable about the seeds that were planted in the different kinds of ground. Maybe those who fall away weren't planted in the best soil to begin with...??
To have a true knowledge of the gospel and then to walk away and deny it all is denying the Holy Ghost, right? Do we know for a surety of anybody who has done this (other than Satan and 1/3 the hosts of heaven rebelling in the first estate, and Cain here in the second estate)? Other than those, none of us can proclaim omniscience to know whether any other human actually had a total surety and testimony of the gospel to begin with, can we?
Makes me think about Lehi's vision. Some head straight for the great and spacious building, some start off in the right direction and then get lost in the mist of darkness, some make it to the tree and then become ashamed, and then some endure to the end.
Maybe it is not so cut and dried as some would suppose. After all, we are missing that omniscience that God possesses to know such things about our brothers and sisters.
My question is, can we know it about ourselves? Can we know that we do have a testimony, or are we hoping we do? Do we only think, hope, and pray that we have a testimony...but the trials of faith are what actually prove whether we do or not. ????
For me, my testimony relies on foundational spiritual experiences that I've had that have confirmed things for me. Instances where I've received powerful revelation from the Holy Ghost.
My core testimony consists of only those things that the Holy Ghost has born powerful witness to me of, which are:
God loves me more than I can comprehend.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, and as a nation we must follow him or perish.
The Testimony of the Three Witnesses is true, an angel truly did appear before them and show them the golden plates.
The Book of Mormon truly is a powerful, living book that will whisper to you from the dust.
The gathering of Israel is happening now.
The Three Kingdoms of Heaven do in reality exist, and the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is indeed obtainable.
Blessed are the persecuted - they will be comforted.
God's forgiveness is real and truly does cleanse you and make you new and born again.
God is always there and always ready and willing to help, no matter how far astray you've gone.
The temple is truly a place where God's spirit resides in tangibleness.
I know I had supernatural experiences that told me those things were true. I know I'm not crazy. And I know all of the other conclusions that follow as a result of those revelations stand to reason (the Church is true, etc etc etc). That's how I know I have a testimony.
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I like Richard Dutcher's films....especially Gods Army and Brigham City was a cool thriller as well. It is always sad to see a brother leave the fold....especially when it tears families asunder. But, inside it will always gnaw at him and eventually if he doesn't die first he will return. I can pass no judgement on him....I have never walked a mile in his shoes and only wish he Godspeed in his journey.
now see, this is the thing that sort of bothers me. when people say they can't pass judgment. Surely we can pass judgment as to what is right and wrong? What is impressive and what is sad or pathetic? And I know "pathetic" is a loaded word, but I don't mean it in that kind of offensive way, I just mean something that is a shame or a waste in the face of opportunity for it to not be so.
On a personal level, no, we're not in Dutcher's shoes - but on a human level, yes, we are all in the same shoes and all have our faith tried. I'm not passing judgment on him as a person in relation to his eternal salvation - but I think any of us are entitled to pass at least some judgment on a person's actions, in direct accordance to how informed we are. Is that not rational?
The scriptures don't just say to not judge, they say to not judge unrighteously. Which I think was a JST addition, was it not?
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Magus... take a moment to put the shoe on the other foot in this case (your foot in this example)
You have your own personal sins and failings (as do we all) what would be your opinion be if someone took to a public forum and berated your for your weakness... and said that your faith and testimony must be totally lame if you can't simply just stop whatever it is that is your weakness. Then when they got called out for it that their defense was that they were totally entitled to rake you over the coals because they have an opinion on how you should be running your life instead?
While it is a given that people don't always get why some else stumbles and falls... It is the place of a follower of Christ to help them stand back up, not to kick them while they are down. And while it might not have been your intent you came across as doing more of the latter then you were the former.
i understand. my intent wasn't to rake Dutcher over the coals. It was just me wanting to express my own feelings about it. Which were surprise, shock and a bit of cynicism and defensiveness, as well as genuine pity and/or compassion, but which didn't get expressed as much in my comments.
though if Dutcher were here, I would tell him straight up how I feel in probably the same way (blunt honesty, I mean...and I'm bluntly honest with those I respect). I would be more tactful about it, but would express the same sentiments and ask him what kind of testimony he had to begin with, and then I would talk to him about what is bothering him so bad.
Whatever that Red Square
in General Discussion
Posted
use this everyone