sabastious

The missionaries gave me a free Book of Mormon when they first stopped by. Before they came over again I had asked God to point me to a page of truth in the BoM. I was directed to page 482 which was Mormon 8:13-24: I don't think it's fair to be tossed a large book written in cryptic Jameson English and expected to read through it and understand it enough to ask God about it. Instead, I asked God to direct me to the page. I realize that if the BoM is a fraud then I would be asking the impossible of God. To me if the book is a fraud that much should rightly be discernible without supernatural aid. There are many powerful and influential people out there that stand behind the idea that JS was a con man. It makes me uneasy to see the flurry of evidence thrown in my direction allegedly implicating Mr Smith. I am currently in the process of dissecting the information of page 482. I find it fascinating that I was directed to a page that speaks of the golden plates and their reasoning to why they were not allowed into the world. To me this is God either saying that the Mormon church is completely right, or completely wrong and it all centers around the truth about those plates. If there were no plates then the LDS prophet and apostles have no authority, but have been acting as if they did. If the plates are true, then they are the guardians of truth on planet earth. An interesting dichotomy. Regards, -Sabastious

I think Hebrews 10 answers that question: There is a linear progression to all things and there is a purpose for mankind. Life is very discouraging and it's important to get together and discuss our lives in relation to the divine purpose for growth and encouragement. I am interested in religion, but I am frightened of it's leaders. Regards, -Sabastious

That's a good question. When I left my former religion my family was devastated because I was going against a covenant I made with what they believed to have been authorized by God. To be baptized as a Mormon, if you were previously baptized elsewhere, you must BREAK a covenant. As it was stated earlier covenants must be authorized by God in order to be valid. Also it must be factored in how capable the person is of keeping said covenants. Are some people predisposed to sexual immorality? Science would suggest that to be the case. Therefore some people could be said to be at a disadvantage whereas others will not. In the end, imo, everybody has their account before God and not any set of rules laid down by man. This is not the case with most churches especially ones that have an excommunication policy. Frankly, not really. Like I said there would be no reason to punish someone for leaving their spouse. The pain of emotional severance is punishment enough. The covenant is between the two people and the ability to love in such a way is bestowed upon us by our Creator. The reason why I was abused so badly growing up is because my parents got stuck into a bad relationship. They are now divorced, but since the Bible says that only adultery is grounds for divorce my mother faithfully stayed with my father who abused me very badly and instead of punishment he was was appointed for church leadership. Because of my horrific experiences I believe that divorce should be an viable option at all times with no repercussions socially or religiously. Too many children are victimized by men who know they get a free ride when "going into a covenant with God." Regards, -Sabastious

I believe that long ago humanity suffered some sort of fall as a result of a rebellion in heaven (although heaven to me is not what most people think it is). That fall came with certain ramifications of which people like you and I had no chance but to born into. Therefore I believe that we should feel remorse for our bad deeds, but not feel guilty about our capacity to commit them. A person who does nothing but bad deeds is just following their natural instincts that were instilled into them by 2.4 million years of evolution in a fallen world. Regards, -Sabastious

I believe that natural consequences are enough to deter people from unrighteousness. There is no need to heap man made punishments onto people who are already subject to the set laws of the universe. For example if I cheated on my wife I would break her heart and that is enough reason for me not to do it. I love her and also I am a believer in oaths. I swore an oath to her and I will uphold it for a lifetime. There is no need to disfellowship or excommunicate, imo. Regards, -Sabastious

I'm not sure what I have done to inflame you, but I am sorry for whatever it was. Regards, -Sabatious

It was just a logical exercise, not a for instance. It was used to illustrate the point that choice can be taken from you even though we always technically have a choice. I could choose to not breath by putting duct tape around my mouth and nose. The consequence would be a frightful death, but I COULD do it. Arguing the point that we all have a choice no matter what is fairly moot. The repercussions of our actions always play a role in the choices we make. I come from an organization that holds the association of your entire family over your head at all times. If you slip up, you will be completely cut off from your family. Lets say I am tempted to cheat on my wife and choose not to. How do I know that my choice was not based upon fear of shame from peers or church repercussions? The very fact that these moral laws are enforced with punishment takes away agency because then you cannot act upon your own volition because fear of repercussions imparted upon by the Priesthood will always play a factor. Regards, -Sabastious

What is the point of agency if only a technicality? If a man walks into my house and points a gun at my son and asks me to give me all his money, do I have a choice? Yes, technically I do, but with a practical application and common sense factored in I do not REALLY have a choice. Because the love for my son far surpasses the money I have, so the choice between the two is not really a choice. The same goes for paying taxes to your government. I can either choose to pay or go to prison. Again, technically there is a choice, but the disparity in circumstance based upon the choice is so great that the choice itself is diminished. Regards, -Sabastious

Right now I don't believe there is anything wrong with many of the things that your church believes is worthy of punishment. If I were to be baptized as a Mormon my agency, that I am currently displaying, would become void because I would then have to live by another set of standards at the penalty of reprimand and possibly even an expelling from the church. The way I would assume you preserve agency into this controlled environment is to get the person entering it to agree not to commit acts that are the church deplores. Then if you commit the acts they get to say you are using your agency and then punishment is permissible. I cannot be gay for instance which is not a problem for me, but it would be a problem for a gay person. I have strong reservations about telling someone their salvation is not available to them because they engage in normal human behavior. If someone is compulsorily compelled to act a certain way then their free agency is being effected. Punishment turns council into law and law is in opposition to free will. Regards, -Sabastious

I need more than a spiritual witness to place faith in a book. I hold the Bible to the same standards as it is just a book as well. What supposed prophets write down is of great interest to me in regards to my faith about God and the universe. A spiritual witness can bolster my faith in God an his purpose, but I need something very substantial for me to place faith in a book. Why have a physical means of education when you need a spiritual guide to have faith in it? The contents should speak for themselves. Why is the supernatural required at all? I have faith in the Bible because the Roman Catholic Church obviously knew that something happened in the 1st century. Within a relatively short period of time the Church had commandeered the entire ideal of Christianity and was warping it to their own desires. However the fact that such a world power (Roman's) felt the need to assume Christianity as an official creed speaks volumes to what the man named Jesus actually accomplished. Was he the Son of God? I think there is evidence that he was and enough so that my faith in him is not blind. If I put faith in a book because of an experience that can be chalked up to a confirmation bias then I feel like I am putting faith in my own experiences coupled with the men that wrote it and not God. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BoM is false, I am just saying that it's very hard to place faith in. Which is why it needs this "spiritual witness." Regards, -Sabastious

Faith in God is a virtue and an innate ability given to us BY God. However faith in men requires SOME hard evidence because if we didn't require that then we would just be leaves in the wind answering the beckoning of lesser men. The more audacious the claim of the man the stronger the evidence is required to have faith in it. I have faith that there are men out there to place faith within. If that makes sense Regards, -Sabastious

I have flaws, but they are mostly due to a hellish upbringing that caused lasting emotional scars. It's hard to figure out credit/blame with me because of so much abuse. I am only 28 so I have not had time to smooth out the emotional triggers that seem to come out of no where. I attend regular therapy however because I cannot lean on my own understanding. Regardless, I don't claim divine authority and I do not enact punishment in the name of the Mosaic Priesthood. Jesus said that when you judge you will be judged in the same accord. That means that church leadership needs to be BETTER than church rank and file because they WILL be passing official judgement. 1 Timothy 3 states the "qualifications for overseers" and the description is that of a person that would be considered better than most. Do you consider your leaders better than the non leaders in any manner? Regards, -Sabastious

The people in the Book of Mormon cannot be historically verified. I know you have heard it before, but there should be remnants of the civilizations that it speaks of, but nothing conclusive exists. This is the exact opposite with the Bible. The Bible speaks about civilizations that can be historically verified. I have a hard time reconciling this information because the BoM is supposed to be a complimentary book to the Bible, but yet the Bible is the clear victor when it comes to historical verification. The BoM has a lot of interesting philosophy in it, but I frankly do not see it's necessity. The Bible seems to be adequate. I guess so far it has failed my "faith test" with it. Interestingly though I was told to read Nephi by a missionary. The next day I was sitting down writing a song and playing my guitar and I wrote some lyrics about "chains falling from my feet" and Lo and behold the first chapter of Nephi speaks about chains being taken away from people in order to liberate them. This was a cool coincidence, but it seems too "light" to be considered anything more, imo. So would you are an organization of people who were all given personal revelation? Why have a missionary service if the Spirit can do it for you? Regards, -Sabastious

Thanks for the direction skippy. I am more interested in being educated about the weaknesses of the current LDS leaders than figuring them out myself. Surely you know where they fall short or else you would be putting faith in the arm of flesh, would you not? There is nothing to be ashamed of. Every church leadership is not only imperfect, but suspect to corruption. The way the Serpent seduced Eve was very mysterious because it seemed like he was just controlling her mind. There seemed to be more than meets the eye and Eve was completely unaware of what was happening. I believe that to be the way the Serpent works, by deception and ultimate control. And the biggest targets are the ones with the power to direct people on a specific basis. Moses gave into vanity and corruption because he was being used by God directly. There is a reason why the Bible shows the fall of leadership like Moses, Solomon and David. It's telling us that leadership is hard on the human mind. Regards, -Sabastious

If I am ever to join an official church I have to have faith in it's leaders. I have a strong faith in God and I don't really need any building up in that arena. However the means of which God works through men and their organizations is very important to me. If I can find a group of people who I can agree with and follow their leaders then I will be more utilized by God. Jesus went where the people were when he preached and the people of today are hidden within organized religion. Knowing the failures of leadership will help me understand them more than hearing about their successes. Regards, -Sabastious