sabastious

The missionaries gave me a free Book of Mormon when they first stopped by. Before they came over again I had asked God to point me to a page of truth in the BoM. I was directed to page 482 which was Mormon 8:13-24: I don't think it's fair to be tossed a large book written in cryptic Jameson English and expected to read through it and understand it enough to ask God about it. Instead, I asked God to direct me to the page. I realize that if the BoM is a fraud then I would be asking the impossible of God. To me if the book is a fraud that much should rightly be discernible without supernatural aid. There are many powerful and influential people out there that stand behind the idea that JS was a con man. It makes me uneasy to see the flurry of evidence thrown in my direction allegedly implicating Mr Smith. I am currently in the process of dissecting the information of page 482. I find it fascinating that I was directed to a page that speaks of the golden plates and their reasoning to why they were not allowed into the world. To me this is God either saying that the Mormon church is completely right, or completely wrong and it all centers around the truth about those plates. If there were no plates then the LDS prophet and apostles have no authority, but have been acting as if they did. If the plates are true, then they are the guardians of truth on planet earth. An interesting dichotomy. Regards, -Sabastious

I think Hebrews 10 answers that question: There is a linear progression to all things and there is a purpose for mankind. Life is very discouraging and it's important to get together and discuss our lives in relation to the divine purpose for growth and encouragement. I am interested in religion, but I am frightened of it's leaders. Regards, -Sabastious

That's a good question. When I left my former religion my family was devastated because I was going against a covenant I made with what they believed to have been authorized by God. To be baptized as a Mormon, if you were previously baptized elsewhere, you must BREAK a covenant. As it was stated earlier covenants must be authorized by God in order to be valid. Also it must be factored in how capable the person is of keeping said covenants. Are some people predisposed to sexual immorality? Science would suggest that to be the case. Therefore some people could be said to be at a disadvantage whereas others will not. In the end, imo, everybody has their account before God and not any set of rules laid down by man. This is not the case with most churches especially ones that have an excommunication policy. Frankly, not really. Like I said there would be no reason to punish someone for leaving their spouse. The pain of emotional severance is punishment enough. The covenant is between the two people and the ability to love in such a way is bestowed upon us by our Creator. The reason why I was abused so badly growing up is because my parents got stuck into a bad relationship. They are now divorced, but since the Bible says that only adultery is grounds for divorce my mother faithfully stayed with my father who abused me very badly and instead of punishment he was was appointed for church leadership. Because of my horrific experiences I believe that divorce should be an viable option at all times with no repercussions socially or religiously. Too many children are victimized by men who know they get a free ride when "going into a covenant with God." Regards, -Sabastious

I believe that long ago humanity suffered some sort of fall as a result of a rebellion in heaven (although heaven to me is not what most people think it is). That fall came with certain ramifications of which people like you and I had no chance but to born into. Therefore I believe that we should feel remorse for our bad deeds, but not feel guilty about our capacity to commit them. A person who does nothing but bad deeds is just following their natural instincts that were instilled into them by 2.4 million years of evolution in a fallen world. Regards, -Sabastious

I believe that natural consequences are enough to deter people from unrighteousness. There is no need to heap man made punishments onto people who are already subject to the set laws of the universe. For example if I cheated on my wife I would break her heart and that is enough reason for me not to do it. I love her and also I am a believer in oaths. I swore an oath to her and I will uphold it for a lifetime. There is no need to disfellowship or excommunicate, imo. Regards, -Sabastious

I'm not sure what I have done to inflame you, but I am sorry for whatever it was. Regards, -Sabatious

It was just a logical exercise, not a for instance. It was used to illustrate the point that choice can be taken from you even though we always technically have a choice. I could choose to not breath by putting duct tape around my mouth and nose. The consequence would be a frightful death, but I COULD do it. Arguing the point that we all have a choice no matter what is fairly moot. The repercussions of our actions always play a role in the choices we make. I come from an organization that holds the association of your entire family over your head at all times. If you slip up, you will be completely cut off from your family. Lets say I am tempted to cheat on my wife and choose not to. How do I know that my choice was not based upon fear of shame from peers or church repercussions? The very fact that these moral laws are enforced with punishment takes away agency because then you cannot act upon your own volition because fear of repercussions imparted upon by the Priesthood will always play a factor. Regards, -Sabastious

What is the point of agency if only a technicality? If a man walks into my house and points a gun at my son and asks me to give me all his money, do I have a choice? Yes, technically I do, but with a practical application and common sense factored in I do not REALLY have a choice. Because the love for my son far surpasses the money I have, so the choice between the two is not really a choice. The same goes for paying taxes to your government. I can either choose to pay or go to prison. Again, technically there is a choice, but the disparity in circumstance based upon the choice is so great that the choice itself is diminished. Regards, -Sabastious

Right now I don't believe there is anything wrong with many of the things that your church believes is worthy of punishment. If I were to be baptized as a Mormon my agency, that I am currently displaying, would become void because I would then have to live by another set of standards at the penalty of reprimand and possibly even an expelling from the church. The way I would assume you preserve agency into this controlled environment is to get the person entering it to agree not to commit acts that are the church deplores. Then if you commit the acts they get to say you are using your agency and then punishment is permissible. I cannot be gay for instance which is not a problem for me, but it would be a problem for a gay person. I have strong reservations about telling someone their salvation is not available to them because they engage in normal human behavior. If someone is compulsorily compelled to act a certain way then their free agency is being effected. Punishment turns council into law and law is in opposition to free will. Regards, -Sabastious

I need more than a spiritual witness to place faith in a book. I hold the Bible to the same standards as it is just a book as well. What supposed prophets write down is of great interest to me in regards to my faith about God and the universe. A spiritual witness can bolster my faith in God an his purpose, but I need something very substantial for me to place faith in a book. Why have a physical means of education when you need a spiritual guide to have faith in it? The contents should speak for themselves. Why is the supernatural required at all? I have faith in the Bible because the Roman Catholic Church obviously knew that something happened in the 1st century. Within a relatively short period of time the Church had commandeered the entire ideal of Christianity and was warping it to their own desires. However the fact that such a world power (Roman's) felt the need to assume Christianity as an official creed speaks volumes to what the man named Jesus actually accomplished. Was he the Son of God? I think there is evidence that he was and enough so that my faith in him is not blind. If I put faith in a book because of an experience that can be chalked up to a confirmation bias then I feel like I am putting faith in my own experiences coupled with the men that wrote it and not God. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BoM is false, I am just saying that it's very hard to place faith in. Which is why it needs this "spiritual witness." Regards, -Sabastious

Faith in God is a virtue and an innate ability given to us BY God. However faith in men requires SOME hard evidence because if we didn't require that then we would just be leaves in the wind answering the beckoning of lesser men. The more audacious the claim of the man the stronger the evidence is required to have faith in it. I have faith that there are men out there to place faith within. If that makes sense Regards, -Sabastious

I have flaws, but they are mostly due to a hellish upbringing that caused lasting emotional scars. It's hard to figure out credit/blame with me because of so much abuse. I am only 28 so I have not had time to smooth out the emotional triggers that seem to come out of no where. I attend regular therapy however because I cannot lean on my own understanding. Regardless, I don't claim divine authority and I do not enact punishment in the name of the Mosaic Priesthood. Jesus said that when you judge you will be judged in the same accord. That means that church leadership needs to be BETTER than church rank and file because they WILL be passing official judgement. 1 Timothy 3 states the "qualifications for overseers" and the description is that of a person that would be considered better than most. Do you consider your leaders better than the non leaders in any manner? Regards, -Sabastious

The people in the Book of Mormon cannot be historically verified. I know you have heard it before, but there should be remnants of the civilizations that it speaks of, but nothing conclusive exists. This is the exact opposite with the Bible. The Bible speaks about civilizations that can be historically verified. I have a hard time reconciling this information because the BoM is supposed to be a complimentary book to the Bible, but yet the Bible is the clear victor when it comes to historical verification. The BoM has a lot of interesting philosophy in it, but I frankly do not see it's necessity. The Bible seems to be adequate. I guess so far it has failed my "faith test" with it. Interestingly though I was told to read Nephi by a missionary. The next day I was sitting down writing a song and playing my guitar and I wrote some lyrics about "chains falling from my feet" and Lo and behold the first chapter of Nephi speaks about chains being taken away from people in order to liberate them. This was a cool coincidence, but it seems too "light" to be considered anything more, imo. So would you are an organization of people who were all given personal revelation? Why have a missionary service if the Spirit can do it for you? Regards, -Sabastious

Thanks for the direction skippy. I am more interested in being educated about the weaknesses of the current LDS leaders than figuring them out myself. Surely you know where they fall short or else you would be putting faith in the arm of flesh, would you not? There is nothing to be ashamed of. Every church leadership is not only imperfect, but suspect to corruption. The way the Serpent seduced Eve was very mysterious because it seemed like he was just controlling her mind. There seemed to be more than meets the eye and Eve was completely unaware of what was happening. I believe that to be the way the Serpent works, by deception and ultimate control. And the biggest targets are the ones with the power to direct people on a specific basis. Moses gave into vanity and corruption because he was being used by God directly. There is a reason why the Bible shows the fall of leadership like Moses, Solomon and David. It's telling us that leadership is hard on the human mind. Regards, -Sabastious

If I am ever to join an official church I have to have faith in it's leaders. I have a strong faith in God and I don't really need any building up in that arena. However the means of which God works through men and their organizations is very important to me. If I can find a group of people who I can agree with and follow their leaders then I will be more utilized by God. Jesus went where the people were when he preached and the people of today are hidden within organized religion. Knowing the failures of leadership will help me understand them more than hearing about their successes. Regards, -Sabastious

According to the Torah the Israelites were extracted from Egypt and placed into a highly controlled environment. For example the Egyptians did not have laws where children would be stoned for disobedience. Egypt was set up to help the world and God's chosen people, but Exodus 1 states that they degraded into corruption and began enslaving people. It seemed like they were just creating another "Tower of Babel." The Israelites had lived under Egyptian rule for a long time and were used to that lifestyle. In order for them to be weened off they needed to be put into a CONTROLLED environment. A true controlled environment is where punishment is handed out for the breaking of laws. That's the only way to change something that is bad and turn it into good. Israel was disciplined and sent into the wilderness for 40 years after worshiping a false god. This was a means of control, so you could say that the Mosaic Priesthood was established to control God's people for their own good. The LDS church has an excommunication policy and therefore enact punishment upon their members. This likely is also considered in the best interests of the members. However as Spiderman's uncle says, "with great power comes great responsibility." And even God understands this and people with great responsibility also have greater punishment upon corrupting. But on what authority are the LDS punishments created and handed out? So far the official reasoning seems to be derived from the authority that was bestowed upon Moses. Don't you need a historical confirmation of his existence in order to act in the name of his Priesthood? I say this because there is no evidence of millions of people going through the wilderness of which the Torah states happened. There also is no evidence that Israel was ever enslaved by the Egyptians and there is no evidence that God destroyed an entire military force including a well known Pharaoh. I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just have a hard time assigning Godly authority to men who say that they succeed a man who cannot be historically verified. There is a lot more historical evidence for Jesus than Moses. My point is that absolute power corrupts and power is the ability to create law and enforce it upon a populace. I come from an organization that is trigger happy when dulling out punishment. So far I have heard some very interesting facts regarding your churches attempt to avoid the problem of absolute power. Many organization's and groups do not even make this effort. What are some examples of where your leadership succumbed to absolute power and what were the repercussions? Regards, -Sabastious

That's funny because when I was writing it I was trying to advocate your beliefs. Not as a true doctrine, but as a group who seems to have a bad wrap. I'm sorry if you were offended by anything I said. I tried my best to advocate while remaining skeptical and true to what I know. Regards, -Sabastious

A lot of judgement going on. I am actually very proud of that thread because most of the people on that thread didn't even like me having the Mormons over. I was determined to paint a better picture that had been painted previously. I am sorry if it's too "risque" for soft hearts, but that thread does a lot to encourage people to not think Mormonism is a dangerous mind control cult. You don't realize the advocacy, but I won't hold it against you. Regards, -Sabastious

We would not know about Christ if it were not for the Hebrews, the Jews, the Romans and eventually the Roman Catholic Church. Even you use the King James Version of the Bible which is a cannon of 66 books that was bound together and closed in the late 16th century. If the Holy Spirit is the only true evidence of Christ then why have anything else? Why have a Mosaic Priesthood? Why contact Joseph Smith and translate the Golden Plates? You accused me of acting "like a Marxist" or "feminist" that looks at "everything" a certain way. You are accusing me of generalizing (which is judgmental) and I said that generalizing is required because of the lack of information in many respects. I like you Vort. I feel the need to say that because I often get into conversations where people think I don't. I enjoy challenging others and being challenged. The Gospel, at least to me, IS simple and elegant. It's man who creates convoluted doctrines in order solidify power and authority. Jesus was reported saying that he would only give the "sign of Jonah" to the people of his time. This meant that he was going to die for three days and then resurrect himself meaning that he was more powerful than any prophet who had every existed. The Jews were very "sign oriented" and are constantly asking for signs which Jesus obliged, but the true sign he gave was where he came to life again without the means of a live prophet. At that point his authority was solidified and then we all had access to the free salvation that he offered. He came to save the world not to judge it. Moses told God that he wanted to be blotted out of the Book of Life because he felt that God was abandoning his promise to the Israelites. Moses felt a deep-seated love for his people because of what they all had went through together. Momentarily Moses was blinded to the issues of his people and didn't understand their punishment. He was being very skeptical of God's actions and God's reaction was he simply ignored the wrong conclusions of Moses because of his own emotions towards his people. The same goes for Abraham when he was arguing with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. He pinned God down about the loss of innocent life because of the sins of others. God ends up saying that if there are only 5 people in the city that are worth saving then the whole city would be spared. Reason is God-given and we are never to be fearful of our own ability to sort things out logically. However we should never LEAN on our own understanding because that will eventually lead us away from God. However questioning God is very much encouraged. Regards, -Sabastious

You still want to judge me as an insulter of your religion, but you don't want to give specifics? Then you should have just left the posters to their own accord with "google instructions" instead of passing judgement in this thread. If you want to accuse me I think I deserve the respect of knowing why. Regards, -Sabastious

Thanks skippy for pointing this out. You all are solid in your faith and are better people because of it. However from my perspective coming out of a church that wanted to control my every thought, emotion, behavior and information I shake in my boots when I am amidst people who follow a human entity who claims to follow Jesus Christ of the New Testament. I urge everyone to not take my candor as aggression. It will only serve to derail this discussion. Regards, -Sabastious

It would be respectful to address your concern with me instead of speaking into the wind. Where are these insults? I will explain them here if you wish. Regards, -Sabastious

Who is Christ? The only evidence for his existence is what is written in the Bible and a small amount of information from historians from his era. The Gospels do not agree on many issues which makes the clear picture of Christ very hard to ascertain. There is nothing I can do but have a limited perspective on the person that lived in the 1st century and was crucified by the Roman government. I do find it fascinating that after killing him they decided to take his message and use it for themselves. It shows the power and influence of what he did all those years ago. I can't help but generalize, Vort, just as everybody does when they start out on the search for truth in this existence. I get the feeling that you are saying I am not humble, which is very judgmental and not really your place. Humility is not something that concerns me because it's not something that I can consciously obtain. If I tell a person standing next to me to "be spontaneous" I have just stripped that person of the ability to be spontaneous because being such would require one to NOT be asked. I am having a hard time understanding where you feel I lack the ability to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Should it not be eloquent and simple? Skepticism is the anchor of reality and it's something that was bestowed upon us by the One True God. There is no wrong way to be skeptical, however cynicism is not a virtue by any means. Regards, -Sabastious

"Cult" is the first four letters in the world culture. I have been educating myself on cults ever since I left my former religion. I have identified two classes: dangerous and non dangerous. Think about films that are largely referred to as "cult classics." This is because the affect the film had on society was so strong that a group of people consider themselves adherents to the ideas contained within. For example I consider myself to be a member of the Princess Bride cult. It doesn't matter who you are if you like the Princess Bride then we will have much to talk about. A dangerous cult is one that uses that "closeness" centered around a set of ideas and use it to further a preconceived agenda. When popular ideas are used to control the thoughts, emotions, information and behaviors of people is when the cult that surrounds the idea is considered highly dangerous and participating in mind control. Absolute power is what dangerous cult leaders look to obtain. The leaders seek total devotion and will employ highly unethical means to obtain it. The fact that dangerous cults exist makes me extremely reserved about organizations that have a leadership that claim a special connection to God. I am interested in hearing the explanation of how Mormon's can be so sure that the Mosaic Priesthood was required to be restored in the first place. The story of Exodus has Aaron and Moses having control to perform very powerful signs. Philip, in Acts 8, is actually shown to have the power of teleportation. Today, all of those powerful works can only be identified by documents like the New Testament. It's extremely important for me to understand exactly why God stopped giving humans the power to call down fire on an offering or teleport themselves. Also Moses and Aaron were revolutionaries just like Jesus. Does the Mormon church consider themselves to have the same revolutionary spirit? If so, how does it manifest within the world today? Regards, -Sabastious

If a scientist doesn't consider all factors then they should not call themselves a scientist. Many people are lazy, but that doesn't mean not being lazy is humble. It's just not being lazy and being persevering instead. I take a scientific approach to the the Bible and Christianity so all ideas derived from them are theories that can at any time do a 180 just like in science. The discovery of the Higgs Boson is going to flip many things upside down. I think humility is a concept that has been lost on many because it's an overused term in most religions. Humility is not something you just accomplish, it's part of the ebb and flow of life and the universe. Humility is a very godly trait and requires true enlightenment to portray and fully understand. Regards, -Sabastious