naomi

Very sorry to hear that, Jason. I got divorced about, WOW!, it's been almost 9 years ago now. It was pretty dirty, and I have had to battle it out for the kid. It's sad when your children get reduced to pawns that you use to hurt the other person with. Will keep you in my prayers. Sorry to hear that Jason. And Jenda is right: using kids to score points against the ex is low. The consolation may be that taking the high road will usually be the healthiest thing for the kids.

Naomi~ I still stick to the above quote I left for you at the start of this thread....I don't have any hard feelings toward you, don't think you are a troll or the like, like we had in the past; I think you are sincere in your choice to leave. It was wrong of me to post that to Ruthie....I should have PM'd her with it...and I do apologize....it wasn't to defame you...just to let her know what has happened here in the past. My bad Sorry, Lindy PS.... remember that you can still have friends that are LDS....a difference in opinion shouldn't deter friendship. Thanks Lindy! I appreciate the comment. It sort of was received a bit wrong. The quote is excellent and it is my goal.

Actually I did go inactive for a while and did my own thing. I realized that being LDS was detrimental to my health, family and soul. YMMV.

Got a confirmation that 30 days will pass and my resignation will be official. Kind of cathartic and there are nice members of your church *no longer mine* which is hard to see sometimes. I don't accept the doctrines and that more than any human, nice or nasty is critical for me in believing in a god or gods or whatever there is. I do find the suspicion a bit offensive but am sure there must be a history I am unaware of with trolls and the like. Thanks Ruthie & Laurel. I really don't want to be that "bitter apostate" and would like to leave your church on a somewhat decent note. Thanks for that opportunity and reminder that most LDS are great folks. I truly appreciate the timely reminder.

Whoops Naomi! There goes your passive-agressive insultation again-gain. What could possibly make you think that I am angry or that I hate you? I do nothing of the sort. I am, in fact, taking note of the exactly what you intended. There - you did it again. You very decidedly meant to insult the Church and it members when you implied that, unlike you, they are unthinking and unquestioning. Why oh why dear oh dear Naomi could it possiblybly bother you that we notice the insults you intended to insult us with? You know that song "Try a little tenderness"? Substitute honesty for tenderness and hum a few bars, will ya? What are you talking about Snow? You are a bit offended and thus are offensive. I really hope you can find some peace in your heart.

Laurel:The hardest part of leaving was the sense that I was letting down the folks around me. I had to count the cost and decide what was really important and in all honesty, my soul was dying by degrees every day I stayed "active" and as a result stopped feeling, thinking or living. Leaving I lost the depression that was a constant companion (sure there are times of despair but there is a joy and a peace I never had as an active LDS woman). The folks who offended me at the most were a catalyst of sorts. I am heading to sleep: long day and more of the same for the week to come.

Thanks Laurel. And that is really the hardest thing for friends and family to "get" that I simply could not fit in the paradigm of "my" wards (had a habit of "thinking too much" or so I was told: this was a criticism I found complimentary) and could not simply "follow the prophet" and stuff down any questions that were not considered "reverent enough." What is Snow's problem? I find his hatred and anger rather sad.

snow, you are lying and I know that you are lying. stop being a liar. Liar! Here's the difference Trident. When I call you a liar, that is because you lie. The lie you told was that Mormons don't believe the Bible. Here is the lying quote: "It just doesn't believe in all the bible." I know it is a lie, you know it is a lie, Naomi knows it is a lie and every single person on this board knows you are a lying liar. There is the proof, in quotation marks. Now, where is the lie you say I told? You can't find it because it is not there. So that makes you a double liar. Now, I may be unkind to call you on your lies, but I am honest about it. You, on the other hand, just got through saying that Christ had changed your heart. Care to tell us how it is that you heart is changed and yet you lie AND lie when every single person reading the thread can see your lie?????? Maybe your heart isn't so changed and you thunk it was. What do you say Naomi? Snow, try Wellbutrin. Or Paxil. I really feel nothing but pity for you.

Don't be a tool. We should make a rule: "No Tools" First, I don't even know what you mean. You say 1. We believe the Bible. 2. We don't believe it at all. 3. We believe some of it. Which is it Trident. All, none, part? Pick one cause it can't be all three. Second. You are lying and you know you are lying so that makes you a lying liar. Mormons believe the Bible - every word. We just don't believe it in the exact way you want us to believe it. I urge you to stop being a lying lies who tells big fat lies. You are a bigger liar than Naomi. She only lied by implication. Her lie was a little skinny lie. Your lie was morbidly obese. Stop the lies and give peace a chance. Snow is precisely the kind of person that misrepresents your (can no longer call it mine) church so horribly to the rest of the world (for some reason, coworkers regale me with stories of the worst LDS folks they run across: it hurts me but I understand). To use an old retail story: There may be 20 wonderful Mormons and one Snow folks encounter and guess who folks remember? And the "friends" who could not find time to call me back, to make plans and then not show up when we had arranged to do so, to not call and cancel (I understand emergencies and have had my share but the not calling and not showing up?) to simply say the right thing and do the opposite are all of a sudden calling and "Friendshipping"? It does not work that way. My non LDS friends OTOH have been consistent and honestly do care. So yes, the wave of phone calls and letters is striking a distinctly false note. And No I am NOT going to pray at the next Relief Society meeting: I put in a letter of resignation effective immediately and mean what I said. I will carry fond memories of friends and some wonderful leaders but that is no longer enough.

Since I can no longer deny the message God has laid upon my heart, I with a heavy heart and a lot of sadness for the people I leave behind (make no mistake about it: the ward gossip meter is on overdrive and my answering machine is full of insincere messages crying "friendship" from utter strangers so any "friends" I manage to keep who are LDS are incredibly special to me) sent my bishop a letter of resignation. Not because i have a sudden and overwhelming urge to sin (coffee smells nasty and I do not drink, smoke, have s*x, watch p)rn nor do I watch R rated films or have piercings and tattoos), not because people offended me (that is incidental) and not because I am lazy (fulfilled my callings and attended my meetings): I put my might, mind, heart and soul into being an LDS woman and faithful RS sister. I can no longer follow a false pantheon of Gods. I boxed up my LDS memorabilia (it is nothing more to me than some memories, mostly good) and am looking for a decent bible believing church. This was not an emotion based decision and did not come without a lot of sleepless nights and tears. I counted the cost and to remain would cost me my very soul. Perhaps I think too much but I count it all gain to lose the community I was a part of for so long. Thank you to the fine people I met along that path and my apologies to the "gentiles" I hurt along the way. Wish you the best. Naomi

My question doesn't simply revolve around whether we should help those in need. Someone needs help, the moral response is to help them. I don't question that. This particular issue was raised by Marilyn Vos Savant who was answering a inquirer's question. The gist (that she didn't fully address) was that there was a destructive side to begging as a profession that involved child slavery, crime, etc, and sucked people into it because it was lucrative enough that people would destroy their lives and self-worth rather than seeking an honest living. She simply said that there were newspaper articles that addressed the topic if anyone was interested. I asked here to generate some discussion. Allright, when you refer to beggers are you discussing the mentally ill folks with signs at streetcorners? (that is a sad sight but these folks are between stays at crisis houses and mental hospitals and are seriously delusional) or the guys who are down on their luck (I passed by the latter set and had a heck of a life lesson soon thereafter). My answer is if I can reasonably help the less fortunate, then I will do so. YMMV.

Do you realize that even now, companies with vast financial resources like Yahoo and Microsoft are developing new technologies that will create even more powerful search and query engines? Whatever will the Church do? Where will we turn? How will we survive. Our very survivial depends upon the apologetic efforts of people just like you, without whom we would surely succumb (can I say that word in public?) to the lying hatemonger of the antiMormons. I mean geeze Ammon, get a grip. It's either the Lord's church or its not. If it is, try and and take the panic out of your voice. Try here: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/misc/misc09.html First of all, nice shoes Snow. And if Ammon approaches anyone with the same sort of overexcited (enthusiastic?) attitude outside the board, what kind of representative of the LDS church is he being? Just a thought.

My attitude is one of inquistivenes, wondering in there is something harmful to the human psyche and wellbeing by supporting the begging lifestyle. You may have had the idea of not being decent to the less fortunate but don't project your peccadillos onto me. Your idea comes across as arrogant and rather rude. I am sure that was not your intent but motive is impossible to read on a screen. Anyway, many of the beggers are mentally ill (a friend works at a MH and saw several of their patients on the street corners). I really do feel bad for these folks and can't see how giving a begger a quarter is bad for the psyche, while sneering at the begger is good.

Where, and what's your point? Why did Mosiah say to be kind to the destitute? The attitude you have is one that I shared until the idea of being decent to those less fortunate was explained to me. Interestingly, this was by a protestant. I wish someone in my ward was able to be that kind. They are really sort of cliquish. I was invited to Saddleback by a work friend and am considering going.

Wow! I wondered where the destitute guys who yelled at me outside the DI in Ogden got their bad impression of members from! Why did Mosiah say to be kind to the destitute?