Stephen

Is disagreeing with and criticizing several of the beliefs of Mormonism the reason for your lack of self-contral Snow? Do you consider it a personal attack against you? Don't you realize that the beliefs of Mormonism demand scrutiny? It was Joseph Smith who said that all the churches of the different sects are wrong and their professors are all corrupt. They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof as they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth in which God is well pleased, speaking of the Church collectively, but not individually. The Mormon Church claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the earth. For this very fact it will always be subject to deep scrutiny and criticisms for false claims, false doctrines, the numerous additions and subtractions of texts from important revelations when one compares the Book of Commandments to modern day Doctrine&Covenants, fraudulent books like the Book of Abraham that does not come from Egyptian scolls that were written by Abraham........the scrolls don't talk about the life of Abraham or his teachings. Its a fraud pawned off by a con-artist and people deserve to know. The truth of these things will be known!

Its a two way street Snow......if you want me to be nice to you then you better get rid of the nasty attitude. Its amazing that anybody ever would want to be around you with that watermelon head egotistical attitude you have.

Of course I cannot prove a miracle or miracles that happened in the past....unless you have time machine Mr. Snowball!You said: "bigot" cause you are using it wrong. {One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.}" Exactly!!......So as soon as you can be civil with me and quit being intolerant and nasty just because I don't agree with your flavor of Christianity then you can go howl at the moon and rant and rave like a lunatic for all I care. Being a bigoted jerk does not make you look smart Mr. Snow.......just conceited and assanine at best.

As far as the Book of Abraham is concerned one who is looking for real answers about it needs to disregard theories that contradict what Joseph Smith said as well as the comments made by several eye-witnesses to the Book of Abraham translation process. One such theory is: THE DIRECT REVELATION THEORY...which surmises that Joseph Smith did not need the scrolls at all, but that Joseph Smith received the Book of Abraham text from direct revelation from God as he was studying the Egyptian Papyri scrolls. Several objections to this can be made and most people with a modicum of common sense would agree with these points. 1) Joseph Smith on several occasions claimed that he could read and translate what was on the scrolls. 2) Joseph Smith on at least one occasion read from the scrolls in front of a group of Mormons as he claimed to be reading to them a portion of what was written on the scrolls. 3) Joseph Smith challenged people in his day to prove that he did not translate correctly what was on the Egyptian papyri scrolls. 4) The Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and others worked on showed that they would take actual Egyptian hieroglyphic characters and they would give the English translation off to the side of those characters. This showed that they were attempting to literally translate the Egyptian characters on the scrolls. An interesting thing about point #3 is that they would take one Egyptian character and translate it into a couple paragraphs of English words which is impossible to literally do. Any Egyptologist would acknowledge that it is impossible to get that many English words from one Egyptian character. There are more points then this, but those points are enough for any logically minded person to reject the "direct revelation theory" as nothing more then an escape hatch theory some Mormons created to try and avoid the embarrassing situation that the Book of Abraham has put the Mormon Church in.

Well for pity's sake, then let's ignore the atheist and check with the believers: The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot perhaps venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time." But whether there was or wasn't is not the issue. The issue is whether or not Jesus existed and was/is God or the Son of God. I defy you, Stephen, to give a single, solid piece of evidence - you know, the kind of evidence that you demand of the BoM - that Jesus lived, was born of a virgin, converted water to wine and was the Son of God? Come on now, don't be a Tannercrite. I am not discussing miracles here Snow. One cannot prove or disprove a miracle. A miracle by its very nature is an un-natural and abnormal event.....thus the reason why it is called miraculous. You are talking apples and oranges. I am asking you.... where is the archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon? You are asking me to prove that past miracles actually happened! I can no more prove that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin or that he actually turned water into wine then you could prove to me that there are three Nephites that actually exist and still walk the earth today.....unless you have a polaroid photo that you would like to show us Mr. Snow. It would be impressive if you could actually prove that the Nephites ever really existed at all. Don't even bother posting anything to me Mr. Snow if you are just going to be asking purposefully assanine questions that you could not even answer yourself. I am not interested in having little wars of words with you and wasting my time posting messages to somebody who would rather play games. You put all Born Again Christians in the same category as Ed Decker and Walter Martin as you mock and criticize me and others simply because we disagree with you theologically and you label us all as you put us all in your neat pigeon holes. Also, if you want to quote from an out-dated Encyclopedia Biblica go for it, but it does not impress anybody here I'm sure. When you ignore the up-dated information that I provided about the city of Nazareth as you go on in your bigoted hate spree about Born Again Christians in general you dont intice anybody to get into a conversation with you about anything. When you decide that you actually want to have a real serious conversation about something........let me know.

There is no side-stepping. If disagreeing with you is considered side-stepping then so be it, but you have strange definitions of things.There actually was a town of Nazareth at the time Jesus Christ was supposed to have lived. That is one of the verifiable evidences of the Bible no matter what kind of story you have read most likely on a athiest website bent on trying to discredit the Bible. If you have anything more than hearsay on this then bring it forward or admit you have no references to back up what you say. I suggest that you are relying on out- dated information to come to your above quoted conclusion regarding the city of Nazareth. Here is some quoted information with a website link for your perusal: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nazy.html The other thing I take issue with is your assumption that there is proof that Jesus Christ visited the Americas.............Where is this proof? You must know more then the wisest archeologists and greatest scholars that the earth knows!!! Are you referring to the Quetzalcoatl connection to Jesus Christ as your evidence? I suggest you read the information on the following website if that is your supposed evidence. http://www.tektonics.org/quetz.html Also according to the religioustolerance.org website there is no archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon teaching that Jesus Christ visited the Americas. http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_migr.htm

What is this incessant need you have to invent fantasy everytime you talk to me.? I don't care that they conclude or preclude or inner-tube for that matter. Let em conclude to their bigoted and ugly heart's content. What I care about is that they seek to harm the gospel and Church of Jesus Christ and are big ole giganta hypocrits when they do it. Stephen is a Tanner convert...you can't expect him to see very clearly... Their religion is based upon hate, discontent, sour grapes, and seeking the splinter in everyone elses eyes while theirs is collecting a forrest full of beams... I'm actually no Tanner convert at all. I don't associate with them attend their church or affiliate with them in any way. I wont go down to your pond slime level though Peace. You drag them down when all they do is expose LDS history that the LDS Church would rather be swept under the carpet for good. If you are blinded by the Mormon Church and believe the white-washed history of the Mormon church they spoon feed you then so be it. It is sad that you mock the Tanners for their honesty and meticulous research on Mormon history and doctrine. You are spewing venom out of your mouth while hypocritically accusing me and others of doing exactly what you are doing. Thanks for another disappointing day on LDStalk message board. Please come by again and spread your gloom. Thanks!

Even Mormon Egyptologist Stephen E. Thompson is in agreement with the vast majority of Egyptologists as you can read at the website I'm leaving a link to. http://www.lds-mormon.com/thompson_book_of...f_abraham.shtml I like to use him as an example first and foremost. Because most Mormons I know automatically disregard non-Mormon Egyptologists with the mistaken opinion that they are all involved in some mass conspiracy against the Mormon Church. I have read all of Paul Osbourne's information regarding the Egyptian papyri scrolls and find his work highly speculative...........he talks about how Joseph Smith used a Urim and Thummim to translate the scrolls and that he received the Book of Abraham text from direct revelation from God and ..............therefore it comes down to.............it was only knowledge that God could extract from the scrolls which knowledge he gave to Joseph Smith. Paul's kind of scholarship is more of a re-writing of history as he attempts to change the facts to try to make the unbelievable believable. I could give you a quote if you wish........ of where Joseph Smith read some of what was on the scrolls to large group of Mormons without the aid of a Urim and Thummin or seer stone. Paul Osbourne disregards statements by Joseph Smith, Parley P. Pratt and others in his attempt to quickly explain away the problem areas of the Egyptian Book of Abraham scrolls. This of course is only my opinion about Paul Osbourne's scholarship. I will check out the other links you left for me and read as well as ponder the information. Thanks, Stephen

This is a shining example of a false statement. Some hold the opinion that it is false, but I've seen no credible source who claims to have proven such. Egyptologists are in agreement on what the scrolls actually are and what they say. They are common funeral burial scrolls. Joseph Smith claimed to be able to read Egyptian......whether he meant by God revealing the knowledge to him on what was on the scrolls....or he meant that he had the knowledge and physical ability to read and translate the Egpytian hieroglphic characters it does not matter.........the end result should be the same. Joseph Smith should have been able to accurately write down what was on the scrolls. Joseph Smith in his life time challenged people to prove him wrong about what was on the scrolls. Well Joseph Smith has been proven wrong although long after his death. The Book of Abraham text is not anywhere on the scrolls and yet it was Joseph Smith that claimed he got the Book of Abraham text from off the scrolls. The facts remain that the Book of Abraham text is not on the Egyptian scrolls and the scrolls actually talk about somebody named Horus that goes to the underworld to be judged by the Egyptian god Osiris, ect. Yes.............The Book of Abraham is a fraud plain and simple because it is not at all what Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church claim that it is. If Outshined wishes to continue to bury his head in the sand on this issue its of no concern to me.

Stephan--the weakness that the Tanners point out in Mormon fall on deaf ears for one simple and logically inescapable reason: Their "born-again" insistence on the validity of the bible and Jesus' divinity rests on the same FOUNDATION as Mormonism does---THAT IS---Faith in something for which there is insufficient tangible, scientific evidence to justify on any basis besides FAITH--which is, in the case of the born-agains, Jesus's resurrection; and in the case of Mormonism, Joseph Smith's first vision and angelic visitations. Yes, there is "reason" to believe both; no, there is insufficient evidence to compel belief in either. The Tanners beliefs that are based on faith and the Mormons beliefs that are based on faith that you are arguing about is a non-sequiter argument. Whether Joseph Smith really had a First Vision and saw God and angels or whether Jesus Christ was really resurrected is not the issue. They are interesting things to discuss, but are things that can neither be proved or disproved. What Mormons believe that can be proved false is what is disconcerting and troublesome. The Book of Abraham is an absolute proven fraud.....all Egyptologists that I am aware of agree about what content is found on the Egyptian papyri scrolls. They are common funeral burial scrolls........They were not written by the Old Testament Patriarch Abraham and in fact the scrolls only date back to around the time of Jesus Christ and could not possibly have been written by Abraham..........The scrolls don't contain on them anywhere the text of The Book of Abraham found in the Pearl of Great Price............The scrolls don't talk about the life of Abraham or his teachings.....THe scrolls talk about a deceased Egyptian that goes to the underworld to be judged by Osiris, ect......and yet Mormons still believe the lie(Yes, false doctrines Mr. Snow). You cannot prove the Bible is not what it claims to be..........of course you cannot prove that the Bible is what it claims to be either, but on the things you can prove about it....the Bible has great credibility. Scholars have discovered that there really was a King David as the Bible claimed and that many of the cities and towns described in the Bible still exist today, there really was a Peter and Paul who walked the earth and you can go to Mars Hill and see that place for yourself where Paul taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes...........there is alot that we take on faith and that is the whole point of having faith...........the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If those things could be proved then faith would be unnecessary because you would have tangible concrete knowledge. God can reveal truths to your mind as an answer to prayer as unrational as that seems to the unbeliever, but that does not bother me at all if you disagree. We no doubt will have to agree to disagree on many issues.

I think you need to read information from their website for the first time and check out the references. The meticulous research they do and accurate information they bring forth might surprise you. All that Snow and Outshined are whining about is the conclusions the Tanners bring forth from the information they expose. If you disagree with their conclusions its no big deal to me..........just don't whine and complain because The Tanners don't come to the same conclusion as you do after reading the same information. You have to admit that The Tanners bring forth information that LDS General Authorities would rather be kept secret and remain in the past. Perhaps that is where the anger and bigoted attitude of Snow toward The Tanners really comes from.....they bring out information he would rather not know about. If you were honest with yourself then you would admit that any information and opinions that disagree with how Mormons view themselves, their history and their doctrines automatically get labelled "anti-Mormon" and you get the snide remarks and nasty comments that come from people like Snow. I have many LDS friends that I get along great with. It is the self-righteous ones that can't handle being around people with different opinions then their own that its impossible to have a friendship with. I would rather get along with Snow, but he prefers to mock and ridicule anything I say that he does not agree with. This is the first I have been on this message board for a long time for exactly that reason.

In reality the Tanners do provide counseling and group therapy to those who have honestly discovered the Mormon deception and walked away from the Mormon Church only to be shunned by friends and relatives for leaving the LDS Church. Many of those people don't know where to go after leaving the LDS Church and have been extremely ostracized by their own family members and LDS Church members. I know from first hand experience the social effects of leaving the religious and cultural norm of your community......I have friends cut-off associations with me and family members shun me simply for leaving the LDS Church. Yes, The Tanners website is a means of getting out information to people about the false doctrines the Mormon Church has taught over the years and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth. The Tanners website does not provide counseling, study groups or help groups........it is a website and is not capable of doing those things. I am grateful that there are honest people like the Tanners who are willing to speak the truth despite horrible hate mail and even occasional death threats. People like Snow who like to mock the Tanners are a dime a dozen.......they have got nothing productive to say....and claim the Tanners are just out to make huge profits or other ulterior motives. I have yet to see you show where something the Tanners have documented was a deceptive or untruthful. You just pile on the ad-hominem attacks and make fun of people who have dedicated their lives to God and exposing errors as they share the biblical truths of God with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear with a desire to really find the truth. Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... but that will not endear you to anybody.

Sorry, wrong. Let's be clear. The Tanners write and sell literature that attacks the LDS Church. The price they obtain for writing it and selling it exceeds the cost of producing it for sale. They turn a profit on it. That is their job. They do it professionally for a living. It may be that under the tax code they have found a way to define their money-making scheme as not for profit, but that hardly means that they don't turn a profit. It is likely that they have classified their prejudicial attack on other religions as a religious ministry itself and therefore don't have to pay taxes on their profits. You didn't answer the question Stephen. You don't appreciate my disdain for the ugliness in the work of people like Dr. (not a Dr) Martin, the Tanners, and Ed Decker, but haven't offered an opinion on what moral defect of character drives them to the ugliness they engage in. If the Tanners make a profit it is no more of a profit then the General Authorities make with their stipends, money for cars, homes, living expenses, ect. The Tanners have a ministry that helps people who have walked away from the Mormon deception and need help in the recovery process. If the truth the Tanners have exposed upsets you soooooo much it sounds like a personal problem to me and most likely they have backed you into a theological corner with their logical reasoning and undeniable facts the Mormon Church would like to keep secret. I don't know Walter Martin and don't particularly care for the books he has written and the sensationalism, half-truths, and lies he has told and I could say the same thing about Ed Decker. I don't know these people or have any afiliation with them and have no need or desire to try to defend them. I don't know why you think I have some association or affiliation with them. I don't even have any affiliation or assocation with the Tanners, but do feel that you have slandered them due to your bigotry and hatred towards them. Dee Jay Nelson was a Mormon so you would have to tell me why he was engaged in a deception with Hugh Nibley(a well known Mormon scholar)........can't blame that on being a Born Again Christian. Your views on this are also very skewed. I have read books by Catholics, Presbyterians, ect., that have said negative things about the Mormon Church. Its not one particular religion or group of people that speak about lies taught by the Mormon Church even if your demented mind thinks it is.

From what I can remember and it's been awhile since I've read about Dr. Walter Martin or his work, same with Dee Jay Nelson and the Tanners - but - I believe the late Dr. Martin's credentials are legit. Dee Jay Nelson was a Mormon when he was asked to help with the BofA manuscripts that were found back in the '60's. I would not call The Tanner's book store and such "a for-profit" business but "a for-living" business. It's how they make their living - or it was - I believe either they both have now retired or just Jerald has retired. I've never really been interested in Ed Decker so I don't know much about him. M. The Tanners actually run a non-profit organization for those who really care and are not out to slander. It is true that it used to be a for profit business, but it has been a non-profit business for many years now. I only happen to know because I live down the street from them and have talked to them on a few occassions.

Well if would be fine you that's what you do/did. State the obvious. What you actually do instead is give everything about the Church the same old, disaffected ala Stephen spin - and then try and pass it off as something other that the biased, slanted view that it is. If anything is biased and slanted it is your always negative attitude toward Born Again Christians. If anything is old it is your "poor me: I'm a victim" persecuted Mormon mantra. Its a broken record that keeps repeating itself over and over and over again. Like the boy who cried wolf.......you have no credibility.

If stating the obvious is a cheap shot then so be it. In other words any opinions that are in disagreement with the views of almighty Snow are cheap shots. Its good to know this for future reference.For Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and others polygamy was a doctrine that was necessary for exaltation. When the media brings facts like this to the fore front it is always going to hit a nerve and be an embarrassment to the leaders of the LDS Church.

The term Mormon Fundamentalist is the common term for those polygamist groups that broke away from the Mormon Church and accept the principle of polygamy as an eternal doctrine just as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young accepted polygamy as an eternal doctrine. If the Mormon Church is still embarrassed about their past then that is a personal problem the church will have to overcome eventually.