Escher462

I have cited the Supreme Court cases regarding racial discrimination as unconstitutional. It's called facts, evidence to back up my points. You....what PROOF have you submitted to back up your claim??? Here some more Supreme Court Cases Jones v. Mayer Co. (1968) Batson v. Kentucky (1986) Shelley v. Kraemer (1948) Griggs v. Duke Power Co McDonnell Douglas Corp. v Green Connecticut v. Teal Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins Logic test: If racial discrimination by govt and/or business it is Constitutional, but illegal according to you, then where is the Supreme Court cases challenging these laws? ANY law can be challenged and overturned by Judicial Branch. There are plenty of racist business owners that I'm sure would LOVE to overturn the civil rights act. Why haven't they sued? Why hasn't that lawsuit made it to the Supreme Court? Why didn't the Supreme Court throw out the entire Civil Rights act this past year?

You can reject notion that the state should regulate marriages all day long, but that doesn't stop it from happening in the real World. That isn't reality! So let's debate reality. Religion and State (Govt) and two different entities. The are separate.....you know separation of Church and State. That is what I am talking about: - 1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion - 14th Amendment: Equal Protection clause From a religious perspective any organization, any group, any congregation may preach, believe, and enforce any marriage tradition they choose. You believe marriage is ordained by God, perfect, you are totally within your right to believe that. If a church believes Gay Marriage is a sin and refuses to marry anyone of that kind, totally fine, that is within that organizations right to do so. That is your morality and your beliefs. Go forth and be happy. Now we go over to the Govt side of the house. In the America today, marriage is sanctioned by State and Federal Govt. There are a couple of thousand laws that protect married couples. No if's and's or but's. Fact. You may feel the govt should not be in the marriage business, fine, but doesn't change the fact that they are! It's a fact the govt is in the marriage business and your disagreements with that fact are actually irrelevant. The debate at hand is what the Govt should do w/ respect to Gay Marriage, NOT religion. - 1st and 14th Amendments - Laws that say govt can't discriminate based on race, gender, or SEXUAL ORIENTATION. - Plus your Libertarian point of view Without religion, I totally agree with you that marriage is a social contract. It's a social contract established by the Govt w/ laws and protections. Those laws and protections must be equally applied for all Americans, straight or gay, which is a right dictated by the 14th Amendment. The problem I think you are having is your are mixing your religious views w/ the rights granted to us under the Constitution. They are separate. Keep them separate. True, but irrelevant. In eyes of the Govt is a social contract that is separate from religious tradition. No, they aren't forcing you or anyone else to legitimize it. This is about forcing our govt to apply our laws equally. You can believe Gay Marriage is completely illegitimate and immoral all day long. Nothing is forcing you to believe in anything else. It's difficult example because we don't know the value of the toys. Let's us simple real World examples. I go into Home Depot and want to buy a snow blower for $15 when it costs $450, then Home Depot can refuse to sell it to me at that price. If I go into Home Depot to buy a snow blower and white Johnny bought one and white Billy bought one for $450. Then black Steve tries to buy one for $450 and Home Depot refuses to sell it to because he is black.....that is a violation of HIS RIGHTS. That is settled law. This is reality. That is America. You may think it is wrong and a violation of the business owners rights based on some fringe libertarian view....fine....your right to 'believe it'. In the real World that is deemed WRONG, illegal, and Unconstitutional. Thank God for it.....

How are tax payers funding marriage straight or gay? Are we paying for their wedding??? LOL!! I believe the Iraq war didn't have a substantial public benefit AND I still had to pay for it.

No it does not and that was recently proven in the court of law in California. Remember GW Bush v Gore at Supreme Court over the Presidential Election. Well both those lawyers teamed up and took on Prop 8 in California. Yes, that is right a Republican and Democrat teamed up. They utterly destroyed all the arguments posed by the Defendants that claimed Gay Marriage harms society. They got your side, the ones opposed to Gay Marriage, to admit on the record that Gay Marriage does not cause harm to straight couples. Watch the trial: It's read word for word based on the courts transcript of the trial.

We aren't talking incest for pete sake. That isn't even comparable. We are talking marriage. You know one of the happiest moments in your life.

1. Being Gay is NOT a lifestyle choice, they are born that way. Jury has come back on that one. Are there bi-sex people yes, but we aren't talking about that. 2. You can not pray the Gay away. That form has been completely dismissed by all major mental health associations. The largest pray gay away group was Exodus Global Alliance and its founder Alan Chambers closed practice and apologized for damage he caused. Lastly, did you choose your sexuality? Nope....neither did I and homosexuals don't either. Imagine being heterosexual and trying to pray away your sexuality. Doesn't work. You can't choice your sexuality You can't choose your skin color You can't choose your disability You can't choose your gender. That is why this is a human rights issue. Just like the Civil Rights, Disability Rights, and Women's Rights.

The IRS and EPA are not fascist organizations! They don't have that kind of power because the heads of those departments are NOT DICTATORS! That is more crazy talk. You are listening to right wing media w/out critical thought. Hilter, Kim Jung Un, Stalin all controlled and promoted fascist states. The IRS and EPA are not the gestapo! That is alternate World crazy talk. Using George Orwell is a great example. All Americans are equal, however, heterosexuals are more equal than others. Others being those who want Gay Marriage. That fits perfectly.

NO...that isn't logical because the person that was murdered had THEIR rights infringed upon by the murderer. I'm not the center of the universe. HA! =] Does smoking have a public benefit? Does drinking have a public benefit? Does gambling have a public benefit? Nope. Banning things that don't have a public benefit isn't very Libertarian. Actually...and just trying to be factual / NOT CRAZY....that is moving towards communism. As a Libertarian, I'm free to do what I want so long as it doesn't impact your rights. Tens of thousands of Gay people have been married across this country and it hasn't impacted you one bit. Gay people have the FREEDOM to marry and obtain all the rights and protection as anyone else in America. That is Libertarian.

Fascist state! That is the totally CRAZY. I was wondering when Mr. Crazy would come out and play. We have problems in American but we are no where near a fascist state. That is just insane talk. NSA spying on US Citizens is totally and utterly unconstitutional. This will be a very true test of our country to see if the Supreme Court will rule this violates 4th Amendment. Fascists.....you sound like Glenn Beck...Hannity....Savage....almost entire right wing Republican party. Thought you were a Libertarian.

Right there!! That is where our lines cross!! Meaning this is the point at which we totally AGREE with each other. I don't care what you do so long as you don't infringe upon my rights. I agree to my bones that you can do almost anything so long as it doesn't infringe upon my rights. I have a very wide spectrum but I'm sure there could be some outlying situations that this may not apply, but I think its ~98% correct. Now lets see if YOU 'really' agree with this belief and I'll bring it back on topic. Yes....this is a test and remember: I don't care what you do so long as you don't infringe upon my rights. 1. Gay Marriage: Gay Marriage does not infringe upon my rights. Gay Marriage has no impact on me, my relationship w/ my wife, my family, or any property I own. Therefore Gay Marriage is a Liberty and a freedom that every American should have. Agree / Disagree? 2. Racial Discrimination by businesses: Racial discrimination by businesses DOES infringe upon my rights as an American. If I need to buy supplies from a supplier and they will not sell to me based on my skin color, that infringes upon my rights as an American. It is my right as an American to be about to by products from any business regardless of how I was born. I did not choose my skin color, therefore this violates my rights. Agree / Disagree?

News alert. You don't have the absolute liberty to do anything you want. This absolute Liberty World you believe in DOES NOT EXIST. There are laws that you must follow. There are laws that if you break them, the govt will punish you by taking away your money, your property and/or taking away almost every bit of your freedom. You do not have absolute Liberty! I'll say it again. Welcome to the REAL AMERICA. Welcome to the Real World.

Racial Discrimination is a violation of the 14th Amendment, therefore unconstitutional. That is backed up by the below Supreme Court Cases. Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886) Washington v. Davis (1976) Arlington Heights v. MHDC (1977) Batson v. Kentucky (1986)

I subscribe to Liberty and how it applies to our rights as they exist today. If you feel that definition of Liberty is hindered upon then petition your govt. If you feel it's a business owners Liberty to refuse service based on race, start marching and try to change it. But know that there will be fierce opposition because this battle was already fought and WON.

You may believe that in your alternate World, but in the America we live in today that isn't Liberty. Until you get the Supreme Court to over turn the laws to meet YOUR definition of Liberty.....my definition of Liberty WINS.

READ my posts for pete sake. I'm talking about BUSINESSES! Laws passed by Legislative branch that are signed into Law by the Executive branch and upheld by the Judicial branch means it's Constitutional. Is Marriage between a man/ women in the US Constitution? No. Is it Constitutional? YES Sodomy is Constitutional. Racial Discrimination by businesses IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL. Do we need to go back to Civic's 101 here???? Not if that somebody advocates the position that businesses should have the right to be racist and openly discriminate against by the color of ones skin. If that isn't racism or supporting of racism.....what would you call it?

Read his comments. He believes it is a business owners right to openly discriminate against an Americans based on race. He believes it is our Constitutional right to open businesses and ONLY SERVE white people, or black people, or Latino people. That is racism AND that is Unconstitutional. That isn't Liberty, especially for the American that can't get Gas at the store because the owner is Latino and ONLY SERVES LATINO's. No gas station for 5 miles....sorry start walking. That isn't playing the race card because ANY RACE can be racist.

OK, you are saying while you don’t ‘personally’ support discrimination based on skin color you have no objection that ‘other’ people doing it because it’s their right. You are saying every American should have the right to discriminate based on skin color. Therefore, logically, you are defending racism. Discrimination based on skin color is racist and ANY race can be racist. So you believe Americans should have the right to be racist and operate racists businesses. That Racism should be a freedom every American should have.... You are also advocating for Discrimination based on Sexual Orientation and I’m sure will support discrimination based on age, nationality, and everything else. I’m just glad that is your Fantasy and not our Reality. See I have reality on my side. I live in the REAL America that deems that type of behavior as UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Welcome to the Real World. . . .

@marshac The individual mandate was absolutely a Republican idea that came out of the Heritage Foundation. Look it up. When you think about it....it makes sense because it satisfies an pillar of Republican tenant: Personal Responsibility Those that do not have Health Insurance who get sick or have a catastrophic accident results is ALL OF US paying for it. We all pay for it now. Think someone making $30k a year will be able to pay off a $350k medical bill? No. They declare bankruptcy and the hospital eats it....then passes that cost onto us. Heath Insurance is a Personal Responsibly for everyone so that everyone pays into the system. No free rides.

Sir that is a very dangerous line of thinking. You are advocating open discrimination against fellow Americans. Imagine a black, asian, or latino soldier coming back home from 3 tours of duty. They go into a local Mall for shopping and find stories that say WHITE ONLY. NO BLACKS! NO ASIANS! NO LATINOS! You are defining that as Tyranny of the Majority??? I think your positive / negative right framing is leading you not only into very dark places but also into real World case law that been stricken down as completely, and utterly Unconstitutional. The definition of discrimination is: The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex. If I don’t buy products from Amazon that IS NOT discrimination!! If Amazon won’t sell me a product because I’m Asian that IS discrimination!! Sir your logic needs a complete re-wiring. There it is again, advocation of open discrimination. Maybe in your World, not in mine. You have some serious morality issues based on the World you are advocating. FYI – Chick-fil-A did NOT discriminate. The COO basically said he was against Gay Marriage. That was it. They didn’t put signs on all their restaurants saying “NO HOMO’s” in our restaurants. Really. You are going to argue slippery slope on what the future will hold 25 years from now. You seem to live in this Rand Paul fantasy World. In the real World, Social Security is 100% Constitutional. So is Obama Care….well at least the Individual Mandate which was a Republican idea BTW. And if you are paying attention Supreme Court blocked requirement for religious institutions to mandate birth control. So the reality that I’m living in seems to be more in tune vs your Rand Paul fantasy World where business owners can open discriminate against other Americans and what it will look like 25 years in the future. Now that makes zero sense. Who creates contract law? Who creates the laws so you can will your assets? Who enforces these laws when they are breached? YES…..the government!!! To bring you back into the real World for a moment, the Govt creates and enforce laws. We absolutely need the Govt which still might be a surprise to you even after this most recent shutdown.

The United States of America is a REPUBLIC......NOT a democracy. James Madison warned against Tyranny of the Majority. Just because the voters of Utah voted to ban gay marriage does not mean its Constitutional. The majority of Utah voters CAN NOT pass laws that infringe upon the rights of Americans. Even though this may conflict w/ your religious views, it does not give you the right to infringe upon the rights of other Americans. A business that is in the public domain can not discriminate. What if I started a discount retail outlet that ONLY served non-Mormons. Taken to its logical extension, giving businesses the right to ONLY serving 'X' category of people would be a very ugly place to live. Religious institutions that are tax exempt WILL NOT be forced to marry gay couples. That is insane. Is the Mormon church forced to marry non-Mormons? NO Is the Mormon church forced to marry anyone today? NO Therefore these exceptions for religious institutions will remain in place. The govt is in the marriage business because there are around 3,000 laws that protect married people. Property rights, passing on assets, Social Security benefits, etc, etc. That is why the govt is in the business.