Randy Johnson

Dale,Just to be clear...I am LDS. I agree...the CoC can do anything it wants to. It has in the past...and it will continue to. You state that Pres. Veasy issued those "conditional" calls after consulting with the First Presidency. Maybe I missed it...but, where does it say that? Secondly, EVEN if he did...the very fact remains that he did not have the authority to issue such calls. In the LDS church, I will admit...we have a very clear and unmistakable "chain of command". There is never a moment when we as a body of saints do not know who the Presiding Authority is...and to whom we should look for the Lord to give guidance and direction...and through whom his revelations will come. In the CoC...it is a totally different ballgame. However, to be fair...the precedent was set in 1851 when the Reorganization first began to evolve. There was no order then either with respect to this. All sorts of people were having this revelation, or that dream....all of which were taken as from the Lord, yet those individuals were not ones in a position of authority to receive such things. The Lords house is a house of order. Regarding Pres. McMurrays personal struggles..whatever they were or are....be they physical or spiritual in nature...they are serious. I wish him well. Dale, could you investigate something for me though? On another board...the statement was made and was said to be verified through the "Goverment patent offices" that the CoC has officially abandoned the name of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I was told and was under the impression that the CoC still maintains that name for legallity/Corporation purposes. It was also told to me that the Restoration Branch movement was pursuing vigorously the possibility of regaining the use of the RLDS name. Could you try to verify what the CoC position is on this? Randy

Dawn,Again...I just want you to know that I admire you in many ways..and I think you are a pretty sharp troop.....in general! hahahahaha! I have read and reread your post...and I must tell you...that does not sound like the Restored gospel and the "stone cut out of the mountain." To me, what I am hearing you say is...that for 175 yrs the Lord's church has been a failure (no other way of interpreting it....) and that because his church is in such turmoil and disarray...that he will yet again "set his church in order" through this "grass roots" movement..through people who very well may not even have the Gift of the Holy Ghost....let alone PH authority to so act. From what I know of what the Prophet Joseph taught....with all due respect, this is false doctrine. Now having said that, I can understand how you have come to such a place in your heart and mind. Going back to my other post regarding the futility of the Restorationists to be able to organize...I can see where you have let this notion evolve and take root. But...it is false....plain and simple. The Lord's house is a house of order. His Church has not failed. His "marvelous work and a wonder" has not been an exercise in futility! There is no need for a "grass roots" movement. What there is need for is for humility, repentance and faith. The world does not need more "movements"....the world needs more faithful disciples...who follow the Lord..and the Lord's annointed.

Randy, with all due respect, you cannot imagine what I have been through in the last 5 years. And while I feel, quite literally, that the floor has been pulled out from underneath me, I can honestly say I see God's hand in it. Growth is often painful, and this is right up there in the pain dept. And for a long time I was unable to see past that pain to the bigger picture. But now I can. I see things much more clearly now than I ever did in the past. I see how things are fitting together. In minute detail? No, but in the way I see God leading the people. We are sitting, I believe, on the very cusp of Zion, and God is calling His army forth. I can see and feel the power that is forming. And you know what, 5 years ago I would have been surprised who is in that army, but now I see that it is bigger and stronger than I could have imagined then. I am glad God has led me to this point. I wish you could join me here so you can see the glory of His work, too. Dawn, Can you share some of the things that you see more clearly? Can you share how things are fitting together? Dawn....you say the Restorationists are sitting on the very "cusp" of Zion. Explain if you can what you are seeing or experiencing that would have you think that, speaking relative to the "whole" of the Restoration branch movement. From what I am reading...I see just the opposite. Dawn...I appreciate your sincere offer to join with you. Let me ask you a question.....what is it that you have that I dont already have....or what you are experiencing that I have not already experienced? I guess...what I am asking is..."what does the Restoration movement have to offer me?

Dawn,Fluff???? Good nite girl!!!!! Ok....some thoughts: 1) You are absolutely correct when you state that we must embrace "correct doctrine" 2) Why does it matter that you leave your name on the rolls of an apostate church? a) it seems to me that answer should be obvious. The RLDS church that you want so desperately to maintain a connection with simply does NOT exist anymore. If you think it does you are in denial. The CoC is NOT the RLDS church. You cannot serve two masters. I guess the real question might be...."why are you so fearful of removing your name from the CoC church"? What is the real motivation behind you maintaining a token membership? There must some "payoff"...I am curious as to what it is. 3) While I agree that when it comes to determining the veracity and truthfulness of spiritual things....simply because a majority believes a certain doctrine to be true..doesnt make it true. I agree with you on that point. Having said that....the fact that the vast majority went west underscores several things...namely: a) That the majority of the saints were in agreement doctrinally...which tells me that they were taught openly and in plainness. B) That the vast majority of the Saints were in agreement with the duly acknowledged and recognized leadership of the church....in spite of the various "would be leaders" who rose up. c) That those "numbers" represented real people...many of which gave their lives for this restored gospel...and that thousands were willing..because of their testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel which they embraced...to literally sacrifice everything they had. d) Contrast those "numbers aka real people" that went west...with those that stayed behind, excepting very few, those people were weak in the faith as demonstrated by their very actions. They were literally tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. This was the nucleous of the Reorganization. That same mindset still prevails to this day. Hence, the RLDS/CoC/Restorationists having the various dilemma's...and things being in a constant state of chaos. 4) What difference does it make if the Restoration Branches organize....? It makes a difference because they "cannot" organize! Hence, they are not embracing correct doctrine. It has been embracing false doctrine that has brought them and the CoC...and the Remnant church to where they are today...which is to say...the exact same place they have been since 1851. Thats no exaggeration either. Dawn...when you say it's just "fluff"...really, with all due respect...that's just "smoke and mirrors" rhetoric to avoid having to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

Why do you suddenly want to stop beating this horse? Is it because you see that all churches are false except for the LDS? Is it because that dying horse is YOUR horse and if we keep "killing it" with truth you won't have a steed to take you further down the path you've chosen? Why is it the under dogs and "non-winners" always want to cut the game short? No. It is because whipping a dead horse isn't going to accomplish anything. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum between Randy and myself on several forums now, and nothing changes. He thinks he can talk me into believing that the LDS church is true because of the problems within the RLDS church. That is so far from logical that it is not worth my time or effort to discuss it anymore. If you and Randy want to discuss it, feel free. Dawn, Where have I EVER said or implied that I could "talk you into" anything? Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth!! What gets me though is that you can talk about this till the cows come home over on Center Place board...but for some reason you clam up over here. Whether you like it or not Dawn...this issue is at the very core of the problems facing the restorationists. The PH in the Restorationist movement know, and have known...that they have an impossible task before them. They have a doctrinal dilemma that cannot be resolved. From what I am reading on the Center Place board...the futility of it all is becoming more and more apparent. Like I have told you in the past...its when the Restorationists are pressed on this issue that we begin to start seeing responses like what you have just given. You are not alone. I have seen this countless times through the years. I would like to just once....have someone give an answer from the scriptures on how the Restorationists are planning to move forward, and show from the scriptures and/or from Church history how they plan to reorganize....again. Not just the canned..."the Lord will set the church in order". Dawn....it's not just "problems" within the RLDS church we are talking about. Good grief...the LDS church has problems.....problems that come with growth...problems with divorce....problems with inactivity/retention....we have all sorts of problems. The "problems" within the RLDS/CoC go way beyond being just "problems". You are very much minimizing what is happening...or in this case...what "cannot" happen. What cannot happen is the Restorationist's effecting any kind of "re-reorganization". It just cannot be done...at least doctrinally. There is no historical precedent for this...INCLUDING the original "reorganization" in 1851-1860. There is no comparison between the two. But, you are right about one thing....it is sickening to watch. I have good friends who are just sick to their stomachs over this. They are good and honorable people....but, they just keep treading water...thats it. Just marking time. It is very sad indeed.

Dawn,You failed to answer my question though...."why and to what purpose does it serve...to maintain membership in a apostate church? You have already stated that there is no "authoritative" PH in the CoC, it is only to be found within the Restoration branches.

Dawn,Can you not see the insanity of this position? It makes absolutely zero sense! I guess what you are saying is that those people who started the Reorganiztion were wrong in leaving The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....they should have just stayed and toughed it out, until the Lord "set the church in order" again, regardless of all the alleged "apostate teachings/doctrines" being taught! This situation today with the CoC and the Restoration branches is no different, but yet, for some reason the Restorationists are content to sit tight. This is what absolutely drives me nuts about the Restorationists! They want to maintain a foot in every camp. Dawn, I like and admire you very much. I just hate to see you on such a dead end merry-go-round....thats all.

Dawn,Why would you want to be a member of an apostate church? ...It might be enlightening if you were to research the history of most of the people who made up the nucleous of the RLDS church....and you would find that I was correct in my characterizations. Dawn....so...why do you feel it necessary to keep one foot in an apostate Church (CoC) and one foot in a Restoration branch? That kinda smacks of being a fence sitter...just waiting to see to which side the ball is going to drop, then you will make your "real" choice. Seems disengenious to me. Again...in a post a while back...when I asked this same question of you...you balked...and said you would wait until you saw what happened at the conference. Well, you saw what happened at conference..yet you still persist in maintaining this connection with the CoC. It really makes no sense. I dont understand how you can rationalize such a position.

Dawn,Why is it a "dead horse" with me...but yet, you go on and talk about it more with Snow?? what's up with that? But, you are right..I am beating that particular horse to death BECAUSE it lies at the core of the problem with the beginnings of the RLDS, Remnant and all the rest of the splinter groups. They all began because the people that that eventually joined with them were either: 1) prideful...in that they simply could not follow the rightful leadership (we are seeing this yet again with the Remnant/Restorationists) 2) they were excommunicated members of the Church and they just gravitated to these new movements 3) they were disaffected members...in that they got they got their feelings hurt etc...and simply gravitated to these various movements 4) they were "inactive" members who really didnt care one way or other...but they knew they were not going to risk their lives going west...and they simply gravitated to these various movements. Dawn, what is transpiring this very moment within the Restoration movement..ie; the PoZ calling this special "conference" to discuss the various "resolutions"...and how the Restoration branch movement is to go forward and proceed...given the CoC church's apostacy is "complete"....is what I am talking about!! Yes..this IS something that needs to be talked about....and shown for what it is. Dawn, just a quick question for you though.....on another board you made the comment that you "still" considered yourself a member of the CoC. Do you still hold to that...given your earlier comments that "if" Steve Veasey were confirmed..and the various callings that he put forward even before he had authority to do so, were also confirmed....that in your mind the apostacy would be complete? Is the CoC church's apostacy complete? If so, why do you still maintain membership in it?

...and I had a friend who told me that Brad Pitt was having an affair with Grace Kelly. My friend also had a dream that she went to school in her underwear and ate an apple made out of plastic. Same deal, no? Gotta love those restoration branches....they all seem to recieve revelation for the church. Not just their "prophet". I was told that if one recieves a revelation or a vision that conscerns the entire church one should count it as a gift from God and keep it to himself. When the lord wants something done regarding His church and wants all to know He will work only through His chosen mouth piece and Prophet. My point? Either this dreamer is just that, a dreamer or this person has slapped God in the face for sharing a great personal gift of knowledge. I'm leaning more towards the first. A. Why should something that concerns the entire church be kept to ones self? B. Were any of the prophets of the OT, who went around having visions and calling people to repentence, leaders of the church? You sound just like the minister who (verbally) slapped Joseph Smith in the face when he recounted his vision to him. Pharisees. Dawn, Concerning the "dream"...is this not exactly what happened in 1851? Someone had a dream, this "someone" was not even in a position of authority to receive such revelations...then it's picked up by word of mouth....kicked around a bit....the rumor mill picks it up.....and then poof....we have the RLDS church...then poof..the same thing happens again and we have the Remnant Church.....then poof....the PoZ have a "special conference"....and then poof......we have the ...???? I think you get the picture. The Lord's house IS a house of order. rj

I agree completely with you, Jared. God will do what needs to be done in His own time. I was referring only to the designs of man. I find it interesting, Jared, that we are at odds because of the Restoration Branches/Remnant situation, yet our beliefs are virtually identical. It is a sad state of affairs when those who hold to the same tenets, etc., can't even call each other brothers and sisters in Christ. Dawn, Actually, the original dedicated "temple land" comprised approx. 63.27 acres. The Hedrickite Church owns the 2 1/2 acre portion, which includes the "high point" of the dedicated 63.27 acres. The LDS church owns approx. 20 acres which have been purchased over the years from successors in interest to parties who asserted title by adverse possession..years after The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was dispossessed of the land. The RLDS church owns the majority of the balance of the land, however, there are other various owners of smaller lots....one of which is the Missouri Pacific Railroad. You are correct when you state that Joseph dedicated the entire 63.27 acres...not just the 2 1/2 acres we usually refer to as the "temple lot". The Prophet Joseph clearly taught there would be built a "temple complex" comprising 24 temples. This fact always seems to get lost when we discuss the "temple" that will be built in Independence, Mo.

Jared, On another board you made the comment that "the Hedrickite church owns the Temple Lot, and they will never sell it to the LDS church". Just a couple of thoughts.... 1) NEVER is a pretty strong word... 2) I would consider the Temple Lot (the portion the Hedrickite' own) as the Lord's...and he will "do" or "not do" with it as he see's fit. 3) It may seem somewhat of a flippant comment (dont mean it to be)...but, when the time comes the Lord wants the LDS church to regain control of the Temple lot...it will happen. There is absolutely no doubt in the minds of the LDS people that this will happen. We dont even give it a second thought...really. The LDS church has built hundreds of temples around the world..and has bucked up against some pretty stout opposition when it comes to purchasing land for temple sites etc. There are many, many exciting and faith promoting testimonies about how those obstacles were overcome. The Temple lot in Indep.Mo...at the end of the day, will be no different. When it's meant to happen...it will. Jared, in your mind....you must believe that at some point in time, the Lord will somehow deliver the Temple Lot into the hands of the Remnant Church...correct??? How do you feel that will be accomplished? randy

Jared,That is exactly what has been happening in the LDS church. The LDS church is beginning to have a significant global presence and impact. It is blessing the lives of countless millions of people, whether they are aware of it directly or not. These blessing are both spiritual and temporal in nature. The spirit of the Lord is going before the Lord's Ambassadors as they teach, preach, expound and exhort the Restored gospel. It is truly a marvelous work and a wonder to behold, and to be a part of!!!!! randy

Dawn,I couldnt tell ya! All I know is that the scriptures teach, and the Prophets have testified often about the significance of, and the vital role that....Independence, Jackson County Missouri..will YET play in the future of the church. Our understanding of what is Zion, what constitutes Zion....in addition to that of the "gathering of Israel" is global in scope. It is clear and unmistakable. randy

Jared,Basically, its no different than when the Saints left Missouri the first time and established the Church's HQ's in Nauvoo under JSjr. Just a little more time has elapsed. Yes, the Church shall in a coming day...build the city of the New Jeruselem, along with the Temple..and will reestablish the HQ's of the Church here in Independence, Mo. All in due time, my good man...all in due time! This area is not ready for that to happen. It couldnt handle it. It would be more detrimental than helpful. The leaders of the Church must be VERY careful in their speech when it comes to Indep/Jackson county. One slip of the tongue, so to speak, and Independence/Jackson county would have, how shall we say....a rather significant increase in the LDS presence here. But...timing is everything!! ....rest assured, it will happen when it's supposed to happen. There is no doubt about that. randy ....IMO...at the present time...the necessity of having the Church HQ's here is not the primary goal. As was stated earlier....the MOST important aspect of the "gathering" is spiritual. People need to accept the gospel and join the Lords church, then the temporal aspect of the gathering can work itself out. It would appear to me that having their HQ's here has not helped the CoC, nor the Restorationist movement...as we have seen first hand.