Shepard

Update: It was becoming obvious that major modifications to the consequences were in order. Dd is doing everything required but it is too much for everyone. I was going to discuss this with the family tonight while broiling some steaks on the deck. Last night, dd gave me the following 2 lists: Concessions- me Visit old people in rest home for 4 hrs on Sundays. Play piano, read to them, talk with them, etc. Join local girl scout troop with some friends. Read the book together suggested by non-LDS therapist on family relations for 20 min a day. Fun family activities chosen by us kids each week. Do other volunteer work for 10 hrs a week. Donate blood once a month (she hates needles). Donate my beautiful hair to locks of love, (she loves her hair). Exercise, gardening, painting, piano, more chores, not fun but will do them all. Be the perfect teenage daughter ever.Concessions- parents No more church meetings for me on Sunday. No more YW/YM activities for me. No more family scripture study. No more boring lessons for FHE. No more church magazines or pamphlets for me. No more talking about me on websites like LDS.net. This is a dark day I never thought I would face, when your child leaves the church. Dd said that she finds most of the discussions here, not just the one about her to be “nauseating.” If this is how Mormons think then she is through with it. I don’t agree with her. It is not like she has never been exposed to Mormons before. She has been saturated with people who are very much like all of you who post here. But her contempt appears to have generalized from the bishop to the rest of the church. Now what?

PrisonChaplan: I agree with this idea of changing from being a director to a coach and giving her more room to make her own decisions within acceptable boundaries. The consequences are getting watered down gradually. School is out and that allows for some modification. Anatess: I agree completely with your message in bigger letters. The actual application of it is hard. How to teach her? I can say: what you did is wrong and she replies: no, it was not. Is that teaching? If teaching is a two way action, then the teacher dispensing the principles without the student hearing or internalizing them is not teaching.That is what I am trying to do. But I can't force her to learn. Part of the problemn is that I partially agree with her. I can see now that I do not want her having private interviews with the bishop. I don't agree with her responsen or I wouldnot be on this site. But I can't answer her observation that what she did accomplished what she intended it to do for her and for her friends. Like she said, I have already won. Wingnut: "take care that you don't give the church a bad name, please" I find this comment odd. First, that horse is already out of the barn. Her non-LDS friends already laughed at a digital recording of a LDS bishop extracting a contrived description of immoral acts from a young girl. In the end I feel like the good name of the strong and vibrant LDS church with 15 million members is not going to be determined by the acts of one belligerent teenage girl and her silly friends. I am more concerned about her at this point than in the social reputation of the LDS church in one obscure school with a handful of LDS students. Would I trade her well-being or her membership in the LDS church for 10 baptisms of her friends? Can't say that I would, and I don't see any of those baptisms actually happening or not happening because of the way I handle the current problems. Suzie: We are researching for a non-LDS woman family therapist. I think you are right. Apple Pansy: If the non-LDS therapist doesn't work out we may come back to the LDS option. At least we tried her way. Quinn: One of my attorney friends told me that my state does not require permission for both parties to be recorded. I don't think they will prosecute my daughter for this and I don't think the police are going to do much to the bishop. Nothing so far anyway. I do sympathize with your point. If my daughter recorded a man assaulting her or molesting her to the point of serious damage such as hospitalization for injuries or preganancy or death and that was thrown out of court because it was recorded. Well, the blood of men like Porter Rockwell flows in my veins and I don't know what I might do. As you know part of the reason for court trials is to punish the criminals but part of it is to create a reason for the families of the victims to not take revenge upon the accused and their families. When the system breaks down, it is only a a matter of time before the law of the jungle comes back into effect. Even though I would like to think I would prevail, I bet that statistics would show that the criminals win and the avengers of justice often lose in the jungle. Why we should support the rule of law. YJacket: I agree that it is the responsibility of the youth to solve their problems.From my dd's perspective she has solved the problem. She sees it as putting responsibility for the bishop's problem back on him. I am pretty certain that if I began to compromise her privacy and recorded her bedroom activities and used them to embarass her, that she would respond by recording the private activities between my wife and I and broadcast that to her sibling and friends. Sometimes we have heated disagreements, usually behind closed doors away from the children and there are the other unspoken activities. My hunch is that I would not win that battle.But your suggestion does help me figure out what I think is best to do and is therby valuable. I am grateful to all of you for your help. I think without htis site it would take weeks to get similar advice from friends and ward members and probably not as thoughtful and useful.

Not working yet. In a word- overcompliance. Killing my wife and the rest of the family more than her. Doesn’t appear to be sustainable. Two hours of family scripture study every day. She seems to delight in it. I can’t do my church calling and function at work. Coaches, other parents asked -let her participate. Maybe I’m wrong but holding my position for now. Girls camp; dd pretty wound up right now, probably would act up, ruin it for others. Prevent more stunts. Still sees LDS girls/boys daily at seminary and friends at school. Has loyal friends who help her stay connected. Taking away her phone, etc. did not shut down communication, only made it more difficult. Some consequences not intended as punishments- just laying down the law. But I see instigating them together- causes confusion. Live and learn. Cloths are a problem. Gave the confiscated ones to best friends. They share cloths all the time, back and forth, probably expects to get them back pretty soon. She is slightly smaller than most friends. Barely modest on a smaller skinny girl - not modest on another girl one or two sizes larger/ taller. Her friends wearing her cloths in support -protest -pushing over boundaries. LDS friends donated trek dresses. Dressing as a pioneer without any make-up etc., telling friends at school- Mormon parents have gone crazy. Sold red car at a loss. Dug up back yard, that cost some to buy the tiller. Seeds cost even more. Water bill also going up. Cheaper to buy the vegetables at the store! I have to remember-raising children not vegetables. I think she exaggerates. That her stunt is not visible on google- I am glad to hear, maybe not that many girls are aware /sustaining her. Suzie: She does have far better communication skills than I do. I can’t prevail verbally with her. I’m not so much into feeling inadequate or insecure or bullied by her as just calmly ignoring her when she acts up a little, then verbally jumping on her when it gets worse- which has been rare until now. She is a lot of trouble but I could handle her most of the time before this. I don’t think the bishop is a pedophile but more along the lines of curious/clumsy/old-school. I am convinced that bishops need more than a door cracked when interviewing youth- for their own protection. A cracked door would have done no good in this case. If I had it over: convince all parents in the ward to insist on adult female chaperones present during interviews. Also backed my dd up when she didn’t want the interviews and discussed it later. Therapy: Which? LDS or non-LDS? Dd says LDS therapist same as another bishop- won’t cooperate. But non-LDS therapist probably like school psychologist- probably will side with her to some degree. Wife and I both not comfortable with airing family laundry to non-LDS therapist.

Continued.. Sunday afternoon everyone was quiet, walking on eggshells. I recalled reading somewhere that you can never win arguments with teenagers. The words of the bishop sank deeply into my mind. I prayerfully made a list of consequences of her actions. I met with her in the family room alone in the evening. I explained simply and calmly that her behavior in connection with the recording of the bishop was wrong and as her father I was going to impose consequences. I handed the list to her. Here it is: Consequences for lying to the Bishop, making a digital recording of it and sharing it with friends. Grounded until further notice. Will attend church, school and home. Nothing else. Cancelled: all extra-curricular activities; region track meet, debate team, performances. No movies or parties or activities with friends, except YM/YW. Bedtime 9:00 pm. Get up at 5:00 am. Family prayer and scripture study twice daily. No more skips for FHE. About half her cloths confiscated; collarbone, elbows and near the ankles the boundaries. No more make-up, jewelry or color streaks in hair. No more coca-cola, candy or other junk foods. Drivers permit on hold, no more driving. The red sports car intended for her to be sold.School will be out shortly and for the summer: Summer job as life guard at a community pool not permitted. Cancelled: girl’s camp, temple trip, family vacation. Daily exercise on programmable treadmill with documentation of HR over 170 for 1 hr. Work in garden for 4 hr. a day. Back yard to be roto-tilled by me and large garden put in. Paint the inside of the house, one room each week. Kitchen- 2 weeks. Additional chore list as determined by mother. Practice the piano for I hr. a day after finishing other tasks. Summer reading list; Ensign back issues 2012, 2013 and this year to date. Memorize the pamphlet: For the Strength of Youth. Pass off portions each week. ***We’re going back to 1920 with communication devices!!!No cell phone, computer, social media. No TV, radio, telephone, etc. Nothing that uses electricity to communicate. She read the list and smiled. “You know, I have already won.” The bishop will never interview me again without a chaperone. All of my friends will either request chaperones or secretly record their interviews. Even if they don’t record then, it will always be in the back of the bishop’s mind, this conversation could be recorded. That alone is worth a summer going Amish. She continued, not only has the recording been shared with friends at school, it is making its way slowly into other wards and stakes. She claims she has received dozens of messages from LDS girls from other places and most of them relate being uncomfortable with the bishop interviews and express solidarity with her. She knew she couldn’t change the whole church but she has changed the ward and done more than she expected. She pointed out that many of my consequences are also rather inconvenient for us as her parents. We are going to find out who is strong and who is weak in following them, she retorted. You love that red car more than I do, for example. It will give me delight watching you sell it. I mentioned there was a way out for her. If she had actually been molested by another person, not the bishop but anyone else, it might explain her actions. The consequences could be modified. She laughed and replied, do you want me to make something else up again? Don’t be ridiculous. If anyone did something like that to me I would have my friends make it so not worth it. I don’t use drugs but I have friends who sell them. I could black-mail them into doing practically anything. Don’t worry dad, I’m a big girl now and I can take care of myself. This morning she was up at 4:45 am, scriptures in hand, wearing a pioneer dress with a snarky smile.

Thanks to all for the advice. Some have responded with words of warning and words of wisdom; some with helpful information or suggestions; some with concurrence and prayers; some with outrage and contained anger. We scheduled an appointment with the bishop yesterday and I explained in about 3 sentences what happened. He responded with anger. He did not “blow his stack” but he was clearly upset and defensive. He lectured us for about 20 minutes calling us to repentance and said some things remarkably similar to what was said here: I’ll be blunt. Serious issues leading to further trouble. No regard for authority. Betrayal of him. Leading others into sinning. Ringleader of rebellious youth. And much more. We just sat there feeling the shame wash over us. Then he asked my dd, “Now what have you got to say for yourself?” (I wondered if she was even listening). She counter-attacked. I saw something in her I have never observed before. A mind and tongue as sharp as a razor. Verbatim quotes of his words twisted against him. She had almost memorized everything he said. They argued. He was loud, disjointed and saying >90% of the words; she was calm, rational saying <10% of the words. I can’t relate all she said but here are some examples: (Not saying I agree with her.) It wouldn’t be funny if it was appropriate, like the recording of a conference talk. Every single person who has heard the recording tells me your questioning was unacceptable. Would never condone a male doctor speaking like this to a young girl without a chaperone. Or a male therapist. Or a male teacher. Or a male coach. Or a female teacher. Or a female coach. Or the parents of one youth to another youth. Normal rules of propriety don’t apply to bishops? I created a little verbal soft pornography and you lapped it up. Kept turning the figurative pages for more. I could barely make it up as fast as you wanted it. Asked for names of other LDS youth so you could interview them. Show no interest in the non-LDS girls whose names I mention because you can’t interview them. Wanted me to return weekly for more jollies. You are addicted to these interviews, the thrill of the implied or explicit titillation. And the power it gives you over the youth. Obsessed with immodesty and out-ward appearance of young girls, no time for things of the spirit. Did not recommend I see a doctor to check for disease. Or planned parenthood to prevent pregnancy. Or even suggest I keep a condom in my purse in case it happened again. Or instruct me to report to the police who was selling drugs. Recommended nothing more than confession, then prayers, scripture study which we already do. And read a book written 45 yrs. ago, is now inconsistent with the church website on homosexuality. Did not give me or my friends who might be listening one scrap of useful advice. Now you are making my mother cry on mother’s day. Respect is earned not demanded. Louder and longer bishop, does not make you right. My mild-mannered wife continued to cry and my daughter took her to the car telling her everything was going to be alright, in an odd reversal of the parent-child roles. Later my wife said she cannot deal with dd anymore, she is too strong and too sharp. She would continue to love her and pray for her but her bad behavior was too much and was my problem now. After they left the bishop questioned me. He asked if I was holding FHE, daily prayers and scripture study. I replied about 80%. He said there you go, and he pointed out that even with 100, quality is more important than frequency. He observed her apparel was borderline immodest and she had too many non-LDS friends. Then he asked me if I was the one looking at pornography. (I do not). He accused me of inviting an evil spirit into my home and perhaps now it had infected her. What would demonic possession described in the scriptures look like in the modern world? He believes she must be guilty of most of the sins confessed or she would be more submissive. The bishop grew up on a ranch and said children are like horses. They need to be broke or they never amount to much. My daughter is not “church broke.” It is my responsibility to do it now. She might be too old but it was the only hope for her. He challenged me to do my duty as her father.

Classy lady; Yeh, that describes most of it, not a good place. A mountain of shame, a small hill of disappointment with my bishop. Out-flanked by a withering frontal assault from my own blood and caught in friendly cross fire from the bishop. But there will be consequences. Applepansy; Scary. She is not primarily a liar, but uses deception to achieve another agenda. Perhaps worse in some ways. What would you have done differently with your son? Estradling75 What was our response when she said the interviews creeped her out? She is an oldest child, we had little experience with teenagers. We did what works with small children, we forced her to do the right thing. All of the parents did this, many with more experience than me. We do listen to our church leaders better than we listen to our youth. Yes, that was the origin of the problem. You're not listening I will make you listen. I guess she knew that sharing it with friends would eventually get back to us magnified. I think you hit the nail on the head. Do we really listen to our youth? Not only bishops need training. Parents need it too.

Thank you for all of the advice I am almost overwhelmed by it. What a blessing to belong to a community such as this Mormon people. Only 24 hours and I have this much help. I agree with most of it but what to do? I realize I must do something about my daughter and her prank, that is obvious. I will. Anatess: “I'm not sure I understand what your problem is with the bishop” Yes, me too. I can’t explain why I feel so disturbed by hearing his words on the tape, but I do. What exactly did she do? 1. I doubt she committed the acts described, otherwise she would not have recorded it and not made it into a joke. (Perhaps some element of truth in jest but not much.) 2. Her prank does express extreme disrespect for the interview process. Not sure this rises to the level of the sons of Mosiah but it is a teenage prank gone way over the top. I have little experience with psychologists but: One bishop involved- clueless, disturbing. One psychologist involved- comprehends this is a prank and agrees with me being disturbed. Red hair: Yes, I agree. More later if time permits. Quinn: What the bishop said is recorded and he did not commit any clearly deviant acts. Else I would be the one calling the police and my wife might be hiding my guns from me. This was only talk, disturbing talk, but only talk. Which is different from perverse acts in my book. Bishop “a trusted adult with whom to share things one might share with no one else.” Yes, I understand but this is a far cry- from a required yearly interview that my daughter does not want to do. If the interviews were entirely voluntary and not a required yearly procedure, she probably would have never gone back a second time. We, the parents of her and her friends forced them all to have the interviews 2 years ago. It seemed like a solution at the time. YJacket: I am more upset with my daughter than with the bishop. But I expect a certain amount of rebellion and obnoxious behavior from a teenager. My expectations of the bishop are higher. He is an adult, a trusted spiritual leader with the Priesthood and conferred spiritual gifts. Hence my confusion at why I am so disturbed. “… I might be more upset at any of my kids for making up such stuff, actually feeling comfortable explaining such stuff to an adult (especially a religious leader when it didn't happen) than doing it.” Really? Do I understand that you prefer youth to be doing “it” instead of talking about doing “it”? I personally take some relief that she is probably not actually doing these things. Probably. Not yet. As for talking about "it": The youth today are saturated with “it” in the public schools as much as we attempt to shelter them. In my observation almost all teens talk about “it” with their peers often when they think adults are not listening. Not that I dismiss this as trivial but it is part of the dangerous landscape of living in this wicked world. AngelMarvel: Thank you for your prayers. I think it would be hard to stop the freight train of confession once it got rolling. So I think that like medical examinations, these interviews all need to be chaperoned from the beginning. We don’t let future bishops and fathers teach primary alone any more. The interviews have more risk in my opinion. FOR THE SAFETY OF THE BISHOP, more than anything else. I feel for the bishop too. Kaelee: More than being chaperoned I am wondering if the women should interview the girls and the men should interview the boys. Chaperones might be the parents or other trusted adults since less than half the children have two engaged parents. (Only suggestions to maybe consider, not demands). As an aside, (perhaps this is an overreaction due to my present state) but how dare your husband overrule you? LiterateParakeet; I agree about what she might do if angry and at this point she is defiant but not angry with me yet. I worry that might change when the consequences of her prank I impose fall on her. Fall they will. NeuroTypical: I have hesitated to talk to the bishop but based on your advice I will schedule an appointment with him. He may be expecting something since he advised her to meet with him on a weekly basis and apparently she has not been back to see him for a few weeks. Margin of Error: Wise words- I need some time to digest them. But I feel peace and truth in your words. I do. As for the close relationship a bishop builds with the youth, I have no control over the bishop. In his defense this might be impossible when we LDS all live so widely scattered in the community and rarely see each other except on Sunday. The bishop is probably overwhelmed getting all the rest of the urgent problems resolved to do much preventive relationship building. We members also move around to different wards and that doesn’t help. If the ideal close relationship is only rarely going to be in place, so much more the reason for chaperones and perhaps a more voluntary requirement for the interviews. My family is in a deep hole as far as a close relationship with the bishop after what has passed.

My carrot-top lass never took to those yearly interviews with the bishop. Claims they are “creepy” and “inappropo.” At age 13 she orchestrated a revolt of the 9 girls her age against being interviewed but the parents all quickly put a stop to it. We didn’t make her go on the subsequent temple trip for fear of further rebellion. Some kids like her might be old enough but not exactly ready. At age 14 they conveniently forgot to interview her and we were on vacation at the same time as the temple trip. At age 15 she slipped a digital recording device into her shirt and taped the entire interview. When the bishop asked if she was obeying the LOC, she replied “sort of.” He questioned further and she deviously led him onto more specific questions which she answered with increasingly shocking details until she had tearfully confessed to a string of tawdry fornications and substance abuse with a variety of unknown characters in unlikely situations. The bishop requested further details and did not seem to be embarrassed or suspicious of being misled. Immediately following the interview dd shared copies of it with her friends and they reportedly laughed themselves silly. Since these few LDS girls are scattered across 3 large public schools they soon shared the amusing interview with many non-LDS girls. Dozens if not hundreds of digital copies of this interview are out there although thankfully it does not appear to have extended beyond their schools. We, the parents first heard of this a few weeks later from the school psychologist who acquired a copy from a student we have never met. To us it seems obvious that it is a fraud perpetrated on the bishop and not a sincere confession (but who really knows)? The psychologist agrees and is not as concerned by her behavior as she is by the bishop having conversations to this level of detail while alone in a room with a young girl. The psychologist is considering maybe this might be serious enough to report to the police and suggests that we attend another church and quietly avoid further contact with this religious leader until any potential investigation is concluded. At first I was inclined to severely punish my dd for her flagrant mockery of the Priesthood leaders. But sitting there in that psychologist’s office and listening to the recording of the bishop asking my dd questions about details of illicit (contrived or otherwise) acts and the bishop also being so completely clueless in discerning when teenagers are messing around and when they are serious. This caused something to snap inside of me. The bishop is just doing his job? And yet he also seems out of line. If this practice of teenage girls confessing their private misbehavior to mature men is appropriate, why was a recording of it so outrageous to so many people in a public school? She remains defiant and unrepentant. Claims she will never willingly sit for another bishop interview as a youth. And there are her younger brothers who idolize her and will soon require these interviews to advance in the Priesthood. Do I warn the bishop that he might be under investigation and does that make me guilty of tampering with witnesses or obstruction of justice?