blueskye

I don't believe God rewards the righteous with material things. Ummm, what? Supporting a child is not a punishment from God. I didn't change what he said. The talk does not address the Cross, at all. That is not so. Abraham was saved by his obedience. The Jews were meant to be saved by obedience to the law, but failed, thus showing us our need for Jesus Christ. In whom we are saved, not by the law. Paul clearly teaches this is more than one of his letters. Hebrews is very clear regarding this as well. The New Covenant IS Jesus, and was not available to anyone until the Crucifixion. Why do you quote "New Covenant", like it is not real? The law is fulfilled (not abrogated) in Jesus Christ. If not, then we should be living the 631 laws. Jesus taught us to follow the ten commandments, love God, our neighbors as ourselves, and pick up our Cross and follow Him. What about Job? Doesn't the story of Job teach against viewing material possessions, as a measurement for how well God is pleased with us?

Are you referring to communism, socialism or some other "ism"? Is the measurement of righteousness, then, the GDP of a country? What does it mean to be prosperous?

I am interested to know if Anatess agrees with this.

What am I claiming?

Thanks! A real answer. "Many, many factors can prevent otherwise righteous individuals or societies from becoming wealthy." ...says to me that righteous individuals and societies are wealthy, but can't always realize it. (?) If that is what you mean, why doesn't God allow them to realize their wealth? I'm rereading the talk. I don't think he is a shyster with dollar signs. Not at all. I just believe the idea that God rewards the righteous with wealth, is a false teaching. From the opening of the talk to the point that I quoted, I read as a reflection of American Manifest Destiny. Then he goes on to use the Book of Mormon, to show that God blesses the righteous while the wicked suffer misfortunes. Even the weather is good for the righteous. Then he quotes Leviticus, which is in context of living the Law. The covenant that God made with His People through Moses. Then cautions about forgetting where material abundance comes from (God). Then back to the Book of Mormon, where people are proud of their riches Then to teaching that blessing of abundance are conditional. Then telling people to pay tithing and fast offerings. Then telling people to work towards qualifying for prosperity. ----- The left out parts are the concerning points. This teaching is completely opposite of what Paul teaches in his letter to the Romans, that is, that we can see God's grace given in abundance to those who suffer. Even those who suffer in sin. (Of course, pointing out that we shouldn't sin in order to obtain more grace.) This paradox is not seen in the talk from Dean Larsen. His is based on the Law, which is fulfilled in Christ. Christ is the New Covenant for Christians. We don't live the Law, and are not justified by our own qualities, but by Jesus Christ.

"The Lord has demonstrated" = we can discern there is a sign from God. Something God wants us to know? No? I don't think you've really thought about what that quote is saying, and are giving a non answer. But, if you think you've answered, fine, I don't have anything else to ask you. Thank you for your reply. Clearly, the quote teaches there is a correlation between wealth and abundance. Your reply is, no, there is not. So. Maybe someone else can address what the quote says, and not what you wish it said?

New thread.

How is material abundance related to obedience?

So, if one person is wealthy in a community, wealth is not a sign of that person's righteousness. But if everyone in a community is wealthy, that is a sign of the righteousness of all the individuals? But you didn't address the quote. How is material abundance related to obedience?

So, you think if a prayer is not answered it is a sign of personal disobedience? What of, it rains on both the wicked and the righteous? Catholics view the scripture you reference in 1 Kings, as prefiguring the Eucharist. I don't think we have the same exegesis there.

From this talk: Is wealth, therefore, a sign of personal righteousness. And conversely, is poverty a sign of personal wickedness?

Yes, nothing in there that says the material things they needed to help the poor were a result of obedience. They are a result of prayer, that is, petitioning God to help them so they can help others. The good brothers of the Order of Trinitarians would not view God providing with them with what they need, as a sign of their own righteousness. I am not saying, at all, that God does not want us to have what we need. Material excess goes beyond need, and yes, I agree that both churches teach that we should be charitable. It is the LDS teaching that prosperity is a sign of one's own righteousness, that is not a Catholic teaching, and never will be.

I'm here for discussion. If you think I must agree with everything said, or hold back my views, then maybe you should just have a conversation with yourself. I don't really care whether or not you approve of my interest in Mormonism, or movies, books or cars, for that matter. Believe who you're more comfortable believing.

Hi, I linked to an LDS article, which does not reference Catholic exegesis on Luke 18. I know, it's fun to change the subject, but the LDS article I referenced focuses on LDS exegesis of the Book of Mormon. Which clearly teaches, wealth is the result of righteousness.

You have no idea why I left Mormonism. NO, we do not. See my post above.

So people are saying, but not saying what you believe it teaches.

I will say it again, and maybe it will sink in. Catholics do not view material possessions as a sign of God's favor. From the talk I linked: The Lord has demonstrated throughout the generations that when the inhabitants of the earth remember him and are obedient to his direction, he will bless them not only with spiritual blessings, but with material abundance as well. No, you will never see this taught in the Catholic Church. Never has, never will. It defies the Cross. Jesus' perfect obedience led to the Cross, not to Nordstrom's.

I am attacking nothing. Hard work and industry are good things. I never said otherwise.

No, they DO NOT. That talk CLEARLY teaches material wealth is a sign of righteousness. The Catholuc Church has never, and will never, teach anything of the sort. You have your head in the sand.. I reach RCIA, so my priest is confident of my knowledge. So you can stop with your constant, and false, ad hominem. Face it, you do not know the Catholic faith, and should stop pretending to be an expert.

Prosperity indicates righteousness, for LDS. Absolutely NOT for Catholics.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/10/the-lord-will-prosper-the-righteous?lang=eng LDS are not the only teachers of the health and wealth gospel. :) But it is not a gospel the Catholic Church teaches.

Our own personal incense. Ha. Jk Smoking is bad, seriously. It's a guilty pleasure, not engaged in often, for me. A cigar now and then. Utah tax on cigars is astronomical, so it's not something to do every day. Wine is for the weekends. A glass of two. I don't enjoy getting drunk. Moderation in all things.

Lol, haven't heard that song in a hundred years. Here's how I see it, having been on both sides of the fence. LDS view material wealth as a blessing, which indicates righteousness. The Abbeys are most righteous. Dude. I've had more than one LDS person tell me that poor Catholic countries are an indication of the nation's unrighteousness. I guarantee you, someone reading this now, agrees. Catholics view materialism as the opposite of being Christian. Rich Catholics may or may not have guilt over their good fortune. But they know the parable of the rich young man, and the pulling of a camel through the eye of a needle. LDS live in denial of this parable. My daughter knocked on the abbeys doors, while trick or treating, and came home with full size candy bars. All about the largesse, all the time. I'm sure it's funner than smoking cigarettes and watchin captain kangaroo. It is the height of folly to live in a house of sand. I recognize I move from rock to sand to rock again, through the grace of Jesus. Mormons seem to have this unrealistic confidence that they are unfamiliar with the sands. I find that to be a put off. I'd rather hang with those who know they have a need, that is filled in Jesus Christ. I don't really care if people smoke or drink, or not. Whatever. I'm an adult and I'm not doing anything sinful or illegal. I'd worry more about my soul if I were driving brand new Bentleys while a child goes naked and hungry.

Of course, I can only relate my experience. Also had someone who wrote me a letter once a month. I never met them. I think if they had passed me, walking the neighborhood, they wouod avoid me, not knowing the person they write to. I live in an area that is economically all over the place. A neighborhood to the east of us we call the houses there, Downton Abbeys. Someone assigned to me once cane from a Downton Abbey, which was entertaining. She came over once. That's usually how it is. Someone comes around once and never seen again. I'm introverted so sure, I'm not going to go knocking on anyone's doors either. Especialky in the Abbeys, where people drive brand new Bentleys. I'm in my 10 year old Honda. I keep to myself. Like to have a glass of wine or a smoke once in a while. The Mormon neighbors are put off by my small enjoyments of life. Don't have anything in common, really. That's really what it comes down to.

Never mind.

David13, ditto for me, but the other way around. :) My husband has been instructed to dial up my parish, for those critical times, like serious illness or death. I hope that is a long ways off! But he knows, get me to a Catholic funeral. My Mormon family will not find that too their liking, but I don't want a Mormon funeral. I want people to send me off, at Mass, like it should be, with prayers said for my soul and my burial consecrated. It is one thing I worried about for a while, as I am the one and only Catholic in my family. Who will pray for my soul? But over time, I have made good Catholic friends, who will remember me. Anyway, I'd read your other posts, but I don't know how without reading everything, which I don't have time to do. God bless you on your journey.