ciustudent

No, I agree that Christ is the Source, always. Christ is the Source! But you implied that you believed that one must "obey commandments in order to QUALIFY to receive Christ's GRACE." By definition GRACE means unmeritted favor. (Romans 11:6) In other words, if you can qualify for it, it ceases to be GRACE and now becomes something you have earned (meritted). God's Holy Word clearly teaches that we are all disqualified. To qualify for something means that you have passed a certain set of obstacles or standards and have now qualified yourself to be recognized for this or that. I.E. If the Utah Jazz win enough games in their conference throughout the year, they will QUALIFY for the playoffs. Grace would be the Jazz goin 6-74 and yet still being allowed into the playoffs. They did not deserve to make the playoffs! We don't deserve salvation, we have already lost every single "game" there is to play (in the analogy). And yet "It is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2:8) So that nobody can say, "I qualified to receive Christ's grace by obeying commandments." After saying this though, I want to reiterate that I totally agree with you that obedience is vital. James says faith without works is dead. Obeying is the outworking of faith. I obey because I have been given GRACE. I don't obey in order that I might qualify for GRACE. I hope this helps. I think we agree that obedience is important. None of us wants "cheap grace." GRACE was not cheap for Christ. But the receiving of GRACE must not be held out in front of us as long as we are obedient as the bunny is held out in front of the greyhound during the race. We receive the GRACE, and BOOM, we are broken - ready and willing to follow our Lord - ready to obey.

I, for one, (and apparently Sarah too) would love to hear where these "original" or "eternal" laws came from? Are there any descriptions from God's Holy Word of these eternal laws? Help us out. The problem with "obeying these laws so that we can become like Him" is monumental. This idea puts us in the same boat with Lucifer, that cursed angel. As a matter of fact, that was the same lie old Lu gave to Eve. "Surely you will not die, if you eat of the fruit, you will become like God..." So, as you can see, there can be only One God. YHWH is a jealous God, and He will not share His glory with another (I think that's somewhere in those things He calls the Ten Commandments). I hope I have clearly warned against any human (pre-mortal or otherwise) hope of becoming like God.

It's interesting that you are so against lexicons, as if you don't believe that these men searched the very sources that existed in the first century AD. What I hear in your "disclosure" is that you agree that faith is another completely separate word from obedience. This is my point. I appreciate your honesty. You can argue with God's Word over whether or not saving faith includes works. I have brought forth just a few verses that scream that "even the great reformers" (I assume you mean Martin Luther and the gang) hold to what was said not just in the Pauline Epistles but also in Hebrews, Habakkuk and the fullness of God's Word both OT and NT. One of the great battle cries of the "great reformers" was SOLA DEI GLORIA = God's Glory Alone! The way in which God receives the most Glory is if He is the One who is recognized as the Author and Perfector of our faith. If He does not author it or perfect it, then that means that we do it. If we do it, we get the glory. Interestingly enough, that is the fourth battle cry of the Reformation. The third happens to be SOLA FIDE = Faith Alone! So it seems the "great reformers" were intent on the just living by faith (Habukkak 2:4)

I actually like what you say and only find one thing to kibble about. Didn't Paul say that G-d is not a respecter of persons. I'm pretty sure he said something like this (maybe it was the S-vior H-imself that said it). When is it we are supposed to say it? Claim and Proclaim (C&P) you say, but when? PC said something interesting once, he said that it is in this life that we are to forge our salvation (he was involved in another thread about LDS doctrine then). It is a nice thing to believe, but what if the particular person never had the chance to know the truth? Never had the chance to a bit of C&Ping. My dad's family are Scots from clan McGregor and were Catholic Jacobites until the late 1700s. They never heard an Evangelical message much less the LDS message. I know many people would say they are condemned, but the LDS position would be that the L-rd would judge them based on the light and truth they had or give them a chance to accept the truth. I love this. Thank you for the contribution. But shouldn't our dead be given the same opportunity to C&P like we have? Maybe you don't think so, but I do not think the L-rd or Chr-st are that miserly. What about the Buddhists of Asia or the followers of Islam? Are they condemned? I don't know, but I think I would let them make the choice (alive or dead) and then let the L-rd determine those that truly know H-m and H-s word as opposed to giving them a blanket condemnation (isn't a little presumptuous for mere humans to speak for G-d, insisting he think or feel a certain way?). I think the Word of God clearly teaches that the Sovereign God has fulll authority to do as He pleases. I also think its safe for me to take a stand on such verses like John 14:6, Acts 4:12, John 3:3, and Luke 14:27, 33. These teach Christ Jesus as the One Mediator between God and man. So what seems unfair to us (ie. muslims going to hell along with buddhists and hindus and democrats (just joking)) is actually completely just for a Holy and Righteous God. In fact, we all deserve hell, period. But God demonstrates His love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So I am not afraid to say that everyone who does not place their faith in Christ alone cannot possibly be counted as worthy for eternity with God in heaven. So what of the one who never hears? That's why we share the Gospel! But even if he never hears am I OK with a God who acts justly and holds that man's sins against him? Absolutely! If he could be saved based on how little revelation he had that would motivate me not to go and tell him about Christ for fear he would reject Christ and then be held eternally accountable for the information that I presented to him. What terrible reasoning!

pistis - AV-faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244 1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it 1a) relating to God 1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ 1b) relating to Christ 1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God 1c) the religious beliefs of Christians 1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same This is the word for faith used in the Interlinear Greek New Testament. It is used 24 times in the gospels alone and it always means faith, assurance, believe (as supported by Liddell-Scott Lexicon – a most widely recognized authentic dictionary of the Greek New Testament). Furthermore, pistis is used 228 times in the entire GNT and never once is defined as loyalty or obedience. ergon is the Greek word for works, and the Greek word most commonly used for obey or obedience is peitharkeo. As for ... If "works" is defined to mean repentance, loving your neighbor as Christ loves them, and obeying God's commandments, then of course works are necessary. Are you claiming that Christ will extend his saving grace to someone who neglects these "works?" I agree with you that these are necessary and righteous acts. However, it is impossible to possess the love of Christ on one's own. These things are not natural for the flesh (Romans 7:14-8:11), in fact without the saving work of the Spirit of life these fruits are absent. So the point I am trying to make is that these works or good deeds flow out of a right relationship with God. They are not done to produce a right relationship. The only thing that produces a right relationship with God is pistis in the work of Christ on the Cross for one's own sin. Once this pistis exists (and it is a gift!), then obedience is the outflowing because of the wondrous work that was done on Cross on my behalf!

I disagree. First, you have to realize that pretty much all of the references to "works" in the Pauline epistles are references to the works of the Law of Moses. See Acts 15 for the original schism which prompted Paul to become such an ardent opponent of Judaizers within the Christian fold. Paul's consistent, clear message was: "Your salvation is independent of whether or not you: eat pork; kindle a fire on the Sabbath; don't offer any more animal sacrifices; don't chant the hallel or wear the phylactery; aren't circumcised..." and so on. In short, Paul condemned the belief that salvation still hinged on obeying the Law of Moses (or its perverted extension, compliments of the Pharisees, scribes and other sects). Paul never taught that obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel as revealed by Christ, were considered "works" and therefore not necessary. Christ himself--when asked what a man should do to enter heaven--answered, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17) I just really grow tired of the "just have faith, faith is where it's at, faith, faith, faith, works bad, bad, bad!" Obedience is necessary to access the grace that saves us. I understand the references to works by Paul. You explain it well. Christ's answer to the rich young ruler that you alluded to in Matthew 19 was taken a little out of context as was a reference to Revelation 12 by another. But I would like to say that Jesus' answer in Matt 19:17 was not the measure of salvation. His answer simply exposed the prideful heart of the rich young ruler who then answers, "well I have done all these." So Christ then condemns this young man's understanding of salvation. The question was not the presciription, its the answer that exposed the error in thinking. Run back to Ephesians 2:8-9. It is by grace alone through faith alone. Now, obedience is still there. But as an overflow of what has been accomplished already, not as a means of accomplishing something (in this case salvation). Trying to work ourselves to eternity is like trying to fly a tri-cycle, it simply can't be done.

I'm pretty sure G-d the Father, and Christ don't think so either. For what it's worth from a Reformed evangelical -- God's Word teaches that there is no one who seeks after God (Romans 3:10-11). That indeed all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23). Not only that, but God has demonstrated His love for us in this way, that while we (all of us, every generation from Adam until present day) were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Christ died for all those who would place their faith in Him. Scripture teaches there is much danger in comparing ourselves with others, even other generations (Romans 2:1). We ought each allow the Spirit of God to examine our hearts. Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12), but never with the misunderstanding that we are saved by those works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9). Lest we stand in heaven and tell our Lord Christ when He asks us why we are there, "It's because I was wiser than others, it's because I possessed the wisdom to know that You were truly Messiah even when others doubted," no, may this never be! Rather our answer must be, "Thank You!! Thank You for doing what I couldn't. Thank you for saving me!" So, we are all in the same boat. Every generation, if Romans 5:12 is true, "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." So we (and every past and future generation) are separated from God and lost eternally unless by God's grace, we place our faith in the one name given under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

PC, thanks for the shoutout. As for the fire of skepticism, it is true what He says through the prophet Isaiah in the 43rd chapter - When you walk through the fire you'll not be burned, and the flames will not consume you, do not fear, for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name, your are Mine, for I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. Oh, to be justified by the redeeming blood of the Savior!

Thank you yedi, for your survey and your note!

It does make me question the literacy standards for university graduation! :) (I do realize there are lots of nice people who simply cannot spell, for whatever reason.) It's not just that. Summer classes at CIU ended August 3rd and Fall classes do not start until next week. No classes are currently in session: http://www.ciu.edu/seminary/calendar/ Next, you would think that someone trying to elicit information from others would be somewhat gracious and friendly. Instead, in her second post ciustudent jumps CK's case for being weak and not showing the love of Christ - all because he was mildly and benignly flippant. Then, I can't imagine any legitimate graduate professor instructing students to do random research on the internet with no control or knowledge over who is responding. The data collected would be totally useless unless you were specifically studying internet poster dynamics - but that's not what ciustudent claim she was doing. It's definately not a graduate level endeavor. It's a not uncommon, but certainly a clumsy, technique - ask some questions under the guise of conducting research and then use that as ammo on this or some other board. Let me explain some things that I hope will allow you to think with grace towards my endeavors. First, I am a male WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). I am 28, I am a student at CIU, and there was a summer session that ended August 3rd. One thing your investigative research didn't tell you was that there was a second session that ended August 10th. I was late in finishing my assignments so I requested an extension and was granted one. Not that I feel the need to justify myself, but I will tell you that I had a busy summer. I work construction full time to support my wife and daughter. I taught Bible for a week at a camp and I preached 5 times in the last 9 weeks. We are new parents and things have just been hectic. Furthermore, I might be persuaded to agree with you that I was confrontational with CK when he was "mildly flippant." I apologize. Also, I understand your disgruntledness towards evangelicals in general, but I would like to point out that I have not attacked any LDS doctrine, nor have I criticized any of your grammar. Oh yeah, and I don't proof read my posts, so forgive me for the occasional slip of the finger. I am a masters student. I did need some information quickly, and with my Sunday schedule I knew the local meetinghouse of LDS was not an option. I'm sure this is more information than you wanted from me, but you did basically call me a liar and I believe Revelation 21:8 says all liars will burn in the lake of fire. I actually am a liar, I am the worst of sinners, but I am covered by the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, a deposit, guaranteeing my inheritance in the Almighty God's eternal Kingdom (Ephesians 1:14-15). Not only that, I am being transformed (Romans 12:1-2, 2 Cor. 3:18) into the likeness of Jesus Christ. I have surrendered my life to my Lord Christ and have given my future over to Him as His tool, a message bearer of the good news of the Gospel. But, I am a broken vessel and I do not claim to be the wisest or the best student among any. Oh, and this hasn't been my favorite class, I fumble the football many times when it comes to engaging those who are different than myself. Many of you have been gracious though, and I more than appreciate your time. Hope this helps a little. Forgive my grammatical errors pleese

perfect! Thanks a bunch!

Alaska, Brevity is not a bad thing. The purposes of the survey were to remain broad. I do regret that you think I am stupid, but I cannot help that. As for the lazy implication, I work construction all day, I get plenty of sunshine there B) I figured the anonymity online would allow most people to be more open than they would normally be face to face. I think that assumption about things said online pretty much holds true. I hope you are having a wonderful day outside since you obviously have wireless internet access and you are most certainly rubbing in more sunscreen as I type.

I'm not disappointed in your "terse" answers, but I am disappointed in the love of Christ that you did not show. There is no place for sarcasm in Christendom. Secondly, I know LDS doctrine. That is not what I'm looking for. I wanted to get a survey from real individuals, what better place than this to get an Anthropology survey. As far as asking questions of age and family, none of the questions were required and there was an email address available to send discrete responses. Responses like yours shed a poor light on the LDS and the prophets therein. Your defensiveness is not recognized as strength, but rather weakness. Please forgive my confrontation, but I think there is a time when people really need to know what they sound like to others.

doc, That question is a broad question about your dead relatives. There is no wrong answer really. Whatever comes to mind when you think about ancestors. Do you still pray for them? Why or why not? Hope that helps!

yedi, You believe the LDS is the one true church, yes? Meaning that all other "churches" are not really churches at all? Oh alaska! I wish it could be easier! This is the best way for me to talk to a larger group though!