sarah_22

So...back to my original question. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that they believe he couldn't even if he wanted to? yay or nay?

"You still didn't answer my question. Was there ever a time that God did NOT govern a universe?" Yes..when he was floating around as eternal material waiting to be "organized"by his god.

"Isn't it funny how much flack the traditional christians give the LDS for belief in extra-biblical doctrine meanwhile they cling so stubbornly to the ex nihilo doctrine which is found nowhere in scripture?" I think the "flack" given from "traditional" christians to LDS members for belief in extra-biblical doctine isn't about ex nihilo creation, it's about beliefs in eternal progression, Heavenly mother, spirit children, Gods exaltation, God having a father etc (most of these are not in your scripture.)... anyway,I'm not here to talk about that. "The traditional christians simply made up ex nihilo and act as though those who don't believe it are worshipping a totally different god than they are. The doctrines of men mingled with scripture.... Hilarious." Yes...hilarious. 2.1 billion christians believe in creation ex nihilo and a further 1.5 billion muslims. How silly we all feel.

"I'm wondering, who is it that owns G-d? Hmmm . . . you do, that is interesting!?!" I was being facetious, since he said "your" God. Dr T: Thank you for your post. I still don't see how it answers my questions though "For things to be done that are impossible to do, that makes absolutely no sense." And...why would creating matter be impossible?I would like to think that the God I worship is above our logic. What seems impossbile to us isn't to him, his ways are not our ways. Why would it be impossible for God to either chose to create matter or chose to organize matter that was there.

"Now that is a really logical statement <sarc>, that's like saying that clay is more important than the potter who creates from it!" Of course the clay is more important. The potter could make nothing without the clay! "Given the logic of the LDS system, it is not at all clear that the mormon God can even be self-existent. For, the mormon God is necesarily embodied and thus depends on matter to exist.. "I see...and you think that God doesn't have a body? He's a disembodied entity? A God of no substance? And because God doesn't have a body he doesn't need matter because, well, to you He is made of nothing correct?" I never said God was made out of nothing. If he had a body though, according to mormism the only way that he would have attained it was from his father who 'organized' him. If matter had not existed God would not have existed. "You actually believe this is what the LDS teach?" Yes..If the eternal matter had not been there for Gods' God then he never would have been able to "organize" his spirit child (Our God)..thus he would not exist. Making the mormon Gods dependent on eternal matter. "Your god has no body, he is made of nothing, he creates from nothing, he must be nothing so thererfore he doesn't exist". Actually I believe my God can take any form he likes..for nothing is impossible with "my" God. "This anti-mormon garbage you are spewing is way off base....God created the laws and eternal principles and therefore He is subject to those same laws and principles. Otherwise He would not be God." Actually..He obeyed eternal laws to become the God that you now know. These eternal laws were governing other Gods long before our God was "organized".

"We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;' (Abraham 3:24)" So, what if there was no more space? Would God just be out of luck and have to recycle matter??Do you see how to me that seems strange? It's like he's dependent on the universe (Thank goodness there was enough space and matter left over or else this universe wouldn't exist.) I would prefer to think of God as never having to 'look' for enough space in order to make something. "We, in this very temporary and limited state are said to be outside of eternity." "Here is time, where is eternity? It is here, just as much as anywhere in all the expanse of space.." (Brigham Young, Pre-existence; The Plan of Salvation.) Some interesting statements that I stumbled across: "Given the logic of the LDS system, it is not at all clear that the mormon God can even be self-existent. For, the mormon God is necesarily embodied and thus depends on matter to exist. If matter had not existed God would not have existed. This makes matter more ultimate than God. He is further dependent on the existence of laws of nature and eternal principles in order to exist and rule." "The Mormon god is contingent or dependent on matter rather than its creator."

"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26). Whose to say that something that seems logically impossible to us isn't impossible for God? Also, what exactly is the difference between 'eternity' and 'eternities'? I hear eternities used quite a bit in mormon literature.

It has nothing to do with being "impressed". I just don't understand why God isn't able to do something as simple as being able to create. I mean..is it against an eternal law or something? By the way, as I said before I'm not trying to "ruffle feathers." I truly am interested in mormon theology and thought who better to learn from then mormons themselves. So, thankyou for your responses.

"The LDS believe that modern prophets have been told by God that He has existed eternally in a co-eternal and unfathomly enormous enviroment wherein He infinitely creates and works with His own innumerable posterity. I can see little reason to argue against it and don't see at all how this downgrades or limits God." You don't see how having to obey eternal laws reduces God??? Shouldn't we be worshipping the laws that pre-existed God instead of God himself? Do you believe God could create ex nihilo if he wanted to?

Yes, Adam was taken from the dust. What I'm talking about though is the pure "elements" that make up the dust not being able to be created from nothing. It lessen him in my mind. I guess the picture of God in my mind is someone who is above "eternal laws" not subject to them.

another quote: LDS apostle John Widtsoe taught that "God, the supreme Power, cannot conceivably originate matter; he can only organize matter. Neither can he destroy matter; he can only disorganize." (Widtsoe, A Rational

Some quotes: "Mormon teachings hold that there are a number of things which cannot be created, such as the matter from which the universe was organized (Abr. 4:1), intelligence (Abr. 3:18; D&C 93:26), and truth (D&C 93:26). It could also be argued that that laws of justice are eternal and cannot be created (Alma 42:22): Thus God had to “appease the demands of justice” "Mormon gods do not have the ability to create out of nothing, but only organize existing material into other commodities, so the material must predate the Mormon gods." "Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-33; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28)."

I guess I don't want to abandon "traditional" thinking. I feel at peace with Gods' power to create and very uncomfortable with the mormon idea of God. I can't help but feel hurt (for lack of a better word) when I hear mormons reduce God to an organizer. the ogre: I can assure you that I have no intent of "ruffling feathers". I am just interested in mormon theology and am trying my best to understand it better.

Okay, you pulled the bait and switch trick. You originally said that Mormons don't believe that God has "power" to create. You left it at that, and that could mean a variety of things including that He can't even create a world...which He obviously did. I don't understand your point. Yes...that's exactly what I said,mormons don't believe God has the power to create. When talking about creating worlds it all comes down to "matter" which makes up you and me and everything we see. So even when mormons talk about God creating..he's not, he just organizing! Which is my point..as I said before Joseph Smith said God couldn't create out of nothing, which to me is quite offensive.

CrimsonKairos: The Joseph Smith quote is from the KFD. "I might with boldness proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all." Mormons refer frequently to a God who "creates" worlds without number..implying an infinite universe.

An expanisive vision of an infinite universe with infinite possiblilities is what I thought mormonism what all about, which is why I find it so difficult to believe there is something he cannot do. In a infinite universe with infinite possibilities, how is it possible that there is something that cannot be done? Put simply, the possibilities that whatever you might imagine MUST exist somewhere given that there are infinite universes with infinite variations.

Brother Dorsey: First -Joseph Smith said that God does not have the "power" to create. So that is a power he does not possess. I don't know why, it just seems deeply offensive to me to believe that God couldn't do something even if he wanted to. Sorry..I meant to address Snow-

Hello all, I am very new to the whole "chat" thing. I have a question about mormonism though, and thought who better to ask than mormons themselves. Hopefully you guys can help me :) I am interested in mormonisms' rejection of the ex nihilo theory. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that he couldn't even if he wanted to? I've been reading quite alot on LDS dotrine and have to say i like it alot, but this particular teaching really gets me. I feel it demotes God in so many ways by teaching that he can't do something. Any replies would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-