Luke

You are confusing things and trying to take the discussion in a different direction. Are you still confused about what I mean by the word you know?! Seems bizarre that almost nobody can give me a direct answer

Hi Carborendum. Yes, I agree that are many definitions and uses of the word know. Now, my question is Do you know with absolute certainty (with the utmost degree of certainty that does not permit any possibility of being wrong) that God does not lie..never lies....ever? I hope there can be no confusion now about my question or what I mean by know.

Hi Carborendum. Yes, I agree that are many definitions and uses of the word know. Now, my question is Do you know with absolute certainty (with the utmost degree of certainty that does not permit any possibility of being wrong) that God does not lie..never lies....ever? I hope there can be no confusion now about my question or what I mean by know.

Questioning my sincerity, talking tactics, confusing the definition of "know", making me out to be some low-life natural man....don't think this advances the conversation. Gentlemen, my question is simple: Do you know with absolute 100% certainty that God never lies? If so, how?

Seems to me that you and many of the others that have posted have confused things. Here is my question: Do you know with absolute certainty that God does not lie? (And when I say know meaning there is absolutely no possibility of being wrong). If yes, please explain how you know.

Jersey Boy: Do you know with absolute certainty that God doesn't lie?

I disagree with your logic.

I think you still misunderstand me Zil, but I think we have both tired with trying to explain to each other....anyway, all the best.

You bring up a good point Wade and I think I agree with you. When it come to the word "know" in this scriptures I will often check to see how it is translated in Spanish because in Spanish there are two words for know: conocer (which is to have familiarity with....like, "I know him very well") or saber (which is like knowing a fact: "I know his name"). Occasionally I have seen "know" translated as "discern" (discernir) So, for example, in Moroni 10:5 it states "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things". In Spanish it uses the verb "conocer". The other thing I think that is interesting is that I hear the word "know" more during a ward sacrament meeting than I do in General Conference...it seems the apostles and church leaders tend to use the word "testify" more than using these common phrases "I know without a shadow of a doubt with every fibre of my being..." I had a Bishop that when he shared his testimony would say, "I believe..." On the other hand, I knew another gentleman, who would get up and say, for dramatic effect: "I don't believe the BOM is true, I don't believe the church is true, etc. and then when everyone was sufficiently confused or shocked he would say, "I KNOW the BOM is true. I KNOW the church is true..." Strikes me as showmanship and not a genuine testimony...and it seems to belittle those that sincerely believe but don't KNOW. I really enjoyed your post and fully agree. The Greeks have a phrase: Hope is the last to die. And I've arrived at the same conclusion: Hope is the obvious choice.

Zil, are you 100% absolutely certain that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true?

Zil, to be more specific, I am not challenging that someone can know with absolute certainty that the Holy Ghost testified to them that something is true. What I am saying, is that I don't see a way that anyone can be absolutely certain that what the Holy Ghost communicated is absolutely true. God could appear to you and tell you something is true and you could know for certainty it was God and you could be absolutely clear about what he was communicating...but I don't think you can know for certainty that what He said was true....I don't see how you could until you yourself have the veil completely removed and arrive to a level of intelligence on the same plane of God...an intelligence that encompasses and perceives everything. I can accept that you can know the identity of the messenger, you can know what the message was that was delivered, but I do not see ,and so far no one's explanation or logic shows how we could know that the messenger is honest. Hmm, I guess what I am saying (and I am coming to this realisation as I write this) is that I think you cannot know anything for absolute certainty until you know everything...since all truth is part of one great whole. Science, for example, can never come to absolute truth because you can never test every possible scenario in the universe...

You are wrong. I believe I have felt the Spirit many times. My question is simply how do you know that just because the Spirit makes you feel good and right about something that is is actually true and right. I don't see the answer to my question in 2 Ne 2.

No....but perhaps that is because of the veil. Hi Zil. I have trouble with the idea of "complete confidence" or claims of absolute surety....other than the proverbial "I think therefore I am". I feel I have a testimony, but I cannot claim to KNOW 100%....and I don't see how anyone can as long as they are mortal and have a veil placed over their mind. When I hear someone say "I know..." during a testimony meeting I cringe a little and think "you are cheapening the word 'know'" btw, I'm now working my way through Lectures on Faith....thanks for the recommendation. I agree with what you are saying. That is why we start out talking about heaven/hell and then progress to understanding the degrees of salvation and damnation. But I do think D&C 19 is different....the way I read it God was intentionally misleading....perhaps for benevolent, fatherly reasons...but still it is lying. I definitely agree with this approach...to me this is the primary difference between spiritual knowledge and other types. Faith/action required to unlock & understand spiritual knowledge Agreed! And one thing I have figured is when I get lax with living the gospel these types of doubts tend to grow. And when I'm living the gospel they don't seem as important....or when I'm going through moments of real struggle, these types of questions take a back seat. I was in a bishopric and the bishop came back from a training with Elder Bednar. He recounted how Elder Bednar had agreed to meet with a group of disgruntled LDS that were protesting some policy of the church. He started out the meeting asking the group questions like: How many of you read from the BOM everyday? no hands go up. How many of you pray at least twice a day? almost no hands go up. etc. After a few questions like that with similar responses he said something to the effect: So you walked into a room and turned off the lights and then you are surprised that you've bumped into a wall. 100% agree! Traveler....you blew my mind with your post. I'm convinced your right. In many ways, mortality is a superficial virtual reality....but on the other hand, these new mortal bodies actually adds a dimension of "reality" we had not experienced before. I liken our mortal experience to our ability to see light....visible light is only a small sliver from the entire electromagnetic spectrum. I heard a general authority warn about social media and virtual reality entertainment saying that Satan wants us to give up our physical reality for a virtual reality that does not include our bodies...and thus traps us in the same reality he is eternally damned to live. Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I have a different understanding. I don't think they were deceived. I think God can forgive people that act wrongly due to deception. I think it was Joseph Smith that described sons of perdition and the denial of the HG like looking directly at the noonday son and denying its existence. To me it is PRIDE plain and simple. I don't think if they were pulled out of outer darkness after a billion years would they repent or say "uncle". They hate God and His authority that much! Again, I'm going to partially disagree (or should I say partially agree to sound more agreeable)...yes, there are a lot of bad choices due to incorrect or incomplete info, but I know that I have made bad decisions knowing that I was sinning, knowing it was wrong, knowing the consequences....but still choosing wrongly. ( I do this every time a Krispy Creme donut is put in front of me.) This is the most dangerous type of sin and I would guess most common among LDS (due to our correct knowledge). I think a lot of bad decisions are also the result of immaturity (which I define as overvaluing present pleasure/happiness compared to future pleasure/happiness). BTW: Do you by chance come from a Jewish or Muslim background? Just curious why you write "G_d" Hmm....that gives even more weight to the statement "I think, therefore I am"...interesting Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

Thank you everyone for their responses. I feel humbled that you all felt my question was worth addressing. Zil, I found your post particularly helpful and feel my concern about eternal sorrowing for lost children is much subsided. Yes, I love the pathos of this chapter and the tender imagery of a Father (and I assume Mother as well) that weep for their lost children. Yes. I'm a very happily married father of four. Just to clarify, when I refer to the 3 or 4 children out of 10 I was referring primarily to the one third that were cast out of heaven with Lucifer and became sons of perdition....not to those who go to Telestial Kingdom. Hi Johnson Jones. Yes, these are great verses in 2 Nephi...I wish more Christians believed the BOM so they could have this profound yet simple doctrine. It does make so much sense. Thank you CV75 for that helpful suggestion. I has been a while since I read D&C88 So I went ahead and read it.....very profound doctrine that rings true Yet, I feel my larger concern has not been addressed. And this is probably my fault for not explaining myself better. But, let me try to focus my question. How can we know that God doesn't lie? It would appear to me impossible to know, at least in mortality. I don't really see how this could help. Because God could say "yes"...but still be lying. That is the dilemma...there is no one else to ask...no one else to pray to...no third party or independent means to verify whether God is lying. And it seems to me God has given us clues that he does sometimes bend the truth. Most of the scriptures speak of only heaven and hell and imply that most will be going to hell. Yet we know from D&C 76 most will actually receive some degree of glory or salvation. I don't know how you interpret D&C 19, but God seems to imply that He sometimes lies to us for our own good. Specifically, when I read verses 6 and 7 it would seem God is using lawyer speak to basically say, I have threatened endless torment, but that was simply a tactic to scare people into choosing the right path...I am not going to cause people to be endlessly tormented: "Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.") And what parent has not sometimes lied to their kids or issued vain threats to try to motivate them to do or not do something. And if this means he isn't really going to cause people to suffer in hell for eternity...hey that is great news....BUT, it opens up the question: What else has God not been honest about?! You make a really good point....and this makes sense to me but doesn't entirely eliminate my concern. Our present "reality" could be a very well designed "Matrix" that is internally consistent but not consistent with the greater reality out there. It seems to me this is one concern that cannot be resolved by praying to God and personal revelation....because even if you know that the revelation you receive is from God there is no way to know God isn't lying. And it makes me shudder and queasy to think about, but even those good feelings from The Spirit...again, could be God manipulating us. Perhaps manipulating us for our own good. Perhaps trying to shield us from a cruel reality that we will eventually have to face and that even Christ's Atonement cannot save us from....I don't know.

I think the answer is because our glory adds to his glory. It is pyramid scheme....except that it is built on righteous principles and all are elevated up. To me this is one of the most amazing things about the gospel: that God yearns to share his glory with us. That he condescends to lift us to his level...which in turn elevates Him even higher. The gospel is 100% win-win.

Let’s start with the assumption that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, Joseph Smith Jr was a true prophet, the BOM is true, etc (and I personally believe these things to be true): Even assuming this, there is one thing, one terrorizing possibility that I don’t see that even the restored gospel has a good answer for. What if there is a truth or a fundamental reality which will ruin even the joy of exaltation? And please, don’t tune out yet….my concern is REAL and let me explain with one possible scenario that concerns me: Imagine you are the parent of a family with 10 kids. The parents do the best they can but only 1 of those kids really does his best to live an excellent life and achieve his potential. 3 or 4 are of the most evil, wicked rebellious sort and commit crimes so heinous that all of them are condemned to a sentence worse than death: life in an awful prison where they are tortured every day and only kept alive so that they can continue to be tortured. The other 5 or 6 children are not real bad or real good, but disappointingly mediocre. When you as a mother or father reflect on your children….are you going to feel good or feel bad? If it was me, I would feel distraught ALL the time….especially to think of the 3 or 4 being tortured. This scenario seems reflective of our Heavenly Parents situation. How do they not feel a constant, inescapable depression (or at least, how could they ever feel a FULNESS of joy) to know that a third of their children are in a constant state of torment worse than the worse hell that even Dante could fathom? Or, is there a way, once a child of God is irreversibly lost as a child of perdition for the parent to cut those heart strings….I mean, what good does it do to love them at that point?! Anyway, this is one of many real possible scenarios of why heaven and even exaltation may not be the happiness we imagine. Some others include: - Perhaps God does lie. I know the scripture tell us that He doesn’t. But God inspired the scriptures…I don’t quite see how we can independently know if God is telling the truth. Not only that, D&C 19 actually seems to imply that God does intentionally deceive us, though perhaps His intentions are benevolent. The following thought is extremely repulsive to me because I have had many experiences where I felt the Spirit and I cherish those experiences....but what if The Spirit is lying to us? How could we ever know? - What if heaven is boring? The typical Christian conception of Heaven sounds as boring as…well, Hell (pardon my literalism). But perhaps after so many billions of years, even exaltation brings an unfathomable boredom. Exaltation and the man-god doctrine of eternal increase address this concern much better than any other religion I’ve studied….but I’m not certain they completely eliminate the possibility of eternal boredom. - What if God is actually evil and delights in tormenting us? Now, I think this scenario is unlikely, but the one thought that gives me pause is the following: it would seem that the most awful torment includes false hope…to raise someone up to believe something wonderful and beautiful and then drop them…the higher you lift them up, the farther they can fall. There is a Twilight Zone (or was it Alfred Hitchcock episode?) that captures this: This guy is betrayed by his girlfriend and ends up spending years in prison. When he finally gets out she is terrified he is going to get vengeance, but instead he shows up and pretends to forgive her and even gives her money to set up a business, etc. And just when things are going wonderful for her, he shows up and tells her it was a set up so that he could make her feel the way she had made him feel before her betrayal….and then he kills her. But I really haven’t explain my concern fully. I am going to attempt another way of saying this, but this is so hard for me to put in words…here goes: It seems clear that there are laws that that even God cannot break….a reality that even God cannot change. That said, there doesn’t seem to me that there is any reason to assume that reality and reality’s “superstructure” has to be benevolent toward humanity. While I believe the restored gospel has the best argument and evidence for a benevolent God, I don’t think we can necessarily assume that reality is benevolent towards humans. It would seem to me that God must operate in the structure of a reality that predates hims (by predate I don’t necessarily mean chronology but prior in order). What I am trying to say is that we know from the scriptures that there are rules that even God cannot break…how did those rules get there?….and in a sense then God is not totally omnipotent. He is bound by these rules. So, what if there is a law or a fundamental fact of reality that results in an inescapable misery and doom for all. And perhaps we are here in mortality for a period…and the veil’s purpose is actually to temporarily screen out this terrible fact from our consciousness….if only temporarily. Perhaps God plugged us into this matrix called mortality to temporarily hide us from a hellish truth. But this bubble of parental protection can not protect us indefinitely from this chilling reality. One of the things that makes me think there is something going on that God is not telling us is the following: If we lived in an eternal premortal state before coming to earth and we will live for all eternity after, what i the probability that we would currently live in mortality? Well, any number divided by infinity is zero...how improbable that we currently find ourselves in mortality!....so, is there something else going on here that God isn't telling us about? Is it possible we are caught in an infinite loop? In some ways, the non-LDS doctrine of reincarnation seems to address this problem better. It is not my intention to be sacrilegious. But I believe in freedom of thought…and it does seem to me there are some scary possibilities out there. I understand if what I said above doesn’t make sense…I really have a hard time explaining my concern. In the end, though, my concerns don’t result in any change in my behavior or faith…because I have no control of the structure of reality. I will continue to live my life with the assumption that all the things the church teaches are true and that doom is escapable by obeying God and relying on the merits of our Savior. I suppose the truth of all things will come out after mortal death. But I am curious: Does anyone have an answer for my dilemma? If there is a flaw in my thinking or something I’m missing, please point it out. This has been haunting me for more than a decade.