Madam_Mim

@unixknight Just giving a "thumbs up" without any kind of reply might seem like I didn't really care about your explanations, so just to make that clear: I simply have nothing to add to that ☺️It was definitely an interesting read. I guess that's all for now. Thanks everyone for your comments and patience!

For someone who doesn't even believe in an afterlife, I'm probably thinking about heaven too much but I have a few more things on my mind. Of course this is all just speculative but what does the church teach or - if there are no official teachings about it - what do you think about heaven: - Do you have free will? So could you sin and would there be consequences for sinning? - What do you think will you be doing in heaven? I know that's such a stupid question, but when I'm picturing heaven I'm wondering for example if you have books there and where you would get them from. And are you living in houses (and who's building them)? I don't expect you to give me definite answers - I'm just curious how you picture it. - And has the idea of eternity ever been scary or uncomfortable to you? You have no chance to ever end your existence in heaven, do you? That's one thing I really like about mortality - knowing that I can end my life anytime I want is extremely comforting to me. Not that I'm suicidal or anything, it's just nice to know that we have this option.

@unixknight I think I get what you're saying and again: Thanks for sharing your view. Some believers do claim they "know" that god exists or that the church is true. Do you think that's still different from people actually knowing (if god demonstrated his existence) he exists and therefore behaving a certain way (as you mentioned)? I'm not criticising in any way, I'm just wondering what the difference is. Because I assume you too think that god watches everything you do?

Fair enough! Haha ok. Maybe I would feel the same way if I had the same experience that you (and others here) had. Still, a little more obvious hints for god's existence, and not just communicating with people in a way that can't be witnessed by others would be really helpful. Not just for unbelievers - but also or especially for believers, since they wouldn't get ridiculed or judged for their beliefs AND they wouldn't have to deal with people like me anymore. You're just grumpy because God apparently loves us more over here 😎😉 (couldn't resist) No sorry - I didn't mean to come off like I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm not denying that it's amazing what some people do to help and support others. I just didn't find the thought that therefor tragedies are somehow a good thing very convincing. But it's perfectly fine if we just leave it at that - you've really been very patient so far.

Where I live, we don't have big natural disasters, there are no hurricanes, earthquakes or deadly floods and we're really happy about that! I think there are enough other ways to help people and show heroism - no deadly catastrophes necessary. But again, even though I can't really relate to them, it's interesting to read your answers and they lead me to another question: What about deadly diseases or miscarriages? Do you believe they have a purpose too? I'm just curious: In this scenario you really wouldn't consider just for a second that it might be the other way around and the Muslim friend got the "right" message and it's actually Allah who thinks that you are in a better spiritual health in your church for now? Or would that thought not even cross your mind? My "problem" is: Even if I ignore everything I've heard other people say about their belief and just focus on my own experiences and pray about this - if I honestly try to find the truth, I can't just rely on my feelings. I've mentioned this before: Just because we feel something really strongly doesn't mean we're right. As some of you already said, I can't expect God to prove himself to us. For me personally, that's ok (although a little more evidence would have been helpful and prevented some wars and deaths) - but then he also shouldn't expect me to follow his rules as long as we can't be certain that he even exists. Why would I do that? That seems completely illogical to me. But anyways... I'm talking too much about myself again. Oh, something else I recently thought of: Do you take the Adam and Eve story literally or is it viewed as a metaphor? (I've read different opinions about this from catholic authors, that's why I'm asking)

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth.

This is how I view accidents like this too (I'm glad you're fine btw). And natural disasters are just that - natural disasters. I see no reason to believe that any of this this has to do with a god. I mean ok... it says so in the bible. But why should that be convincing? Or any more convincing than the things that are mentioned in, let's say, Hindu scriptures.

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to? And if it's a sign from God: Leaving aside that it seems to be quite an overreaction to kill people for sinning - what about those who are faithful, keeping the commandments etc. and get killed in a natural disaster? Are they "collateral damage"? If we all get judged after death anyway, why the additional punishments while we're living? Something completely else: I tried to learn a little bit about Heavenly Mother and how spirit children are created but I couldn't find much information. I've read that we are all "spirit children of heavenly parents". Does Heavenly Mother actually give birth to all spirit children? Or are they created in some other way but heavenly parents take care of them?

Interesting! I didn't know that. You mean natural disasters happen because people have been disobedient? I was picturing someone from an LDS-family who can't be reunited with them because he didn't go to the temple. But I get it now. If you want to make sure to be with your family forever you have the choice to take the necessary actions and can't expect special treatment or god making an exception just because you've been a great person. I still don't understand why a god would care so much about certain church rituals but I'll just accept that they simply ARE very important and move on Oh but on a personal note: Terrestrial Kingdom sounds fine to me! If you're expected to get married and have children in the Celestial Kingdom (sorry if I'm talking nonsense.. I'm still not completely sure how to picture it), that wouldn't be a desirable place for me.

Oh, I completely agree! Of course it's better to be honest. But if someone doesn't believe in the church or in a god anymore, being honest means there's no way for them to receive ordinances and get to the celestial kingdom. Obviously the "threat" of not seeing your loved ones again isn't a big deal to someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife anyway, but it is to believing family members. I thought about what former members could do to make the situation easier for their family members and that's why I somehow came up with that idea of lying... It was just a thought. I doubt that anyone would really do that. But am I getting this right? Even if someone has been THE prime example of a good person, who has helped others, was loving and caring, donating money, saving lives, followed the commandments, went to church etc. but decided - for example - to not pay tithings, that person won't get to the celestial kingdom? If god is the creator of everything, he's the one who makes all the rules and (if he's all-knowing) must be aware of all the possible consequences. The way he created the earth, he must have known that earthquakes will be happening. That was just my assumption when people talk about god as the creator. I can't imagine that believers think god made volcanos and was then surprised when an eruption happened. He must have foreseen things that happened as a result to his creation - diseases, natural disasters etc. What's your view on this?

I thought I'd give all of you a break until General Conference is over. I didn't listen to all the talks of the conference, but I watched Pres. Nelson's talk and wanted to ask some things. He said: This sounded very drastic at first (well... at least if you like your family members) but then I remembered some of you explaining to me that nobody is forced to stay in the celestial kingdom. So if a family misses its son, who's in the terrestrial kingdom, they can just "downgrade" and join him, right? And if the whole family chooses to not make covenants with god, wouldn't they all be reunited in the terrestrial kingdom? Another thing I was wondering: If you don't believe in god or the church - could you still get a temple recommend and receive all the necessary blessings simply by lying to the bishops about your faith and testimony? If I imagine my whole family being terribly upset and worried about me for leaving the church, I'd consider doing that. And is there any scripture about people who do that? What will happen to them after death?

Thanks for explaining the garments! As with most things so far, it doesn't seem that "strange" anymore after reading your comments. But I have to admit - even though you don't see it as a burden - I feel a little bit bad that whoever invented them, didn't just use a ring or a bracelet as a reminder of your covenants instead. I agree, *just* reading doesn't bring one closer to god. And I didn't read the bible with that intention - I read it to learn what it says (before that, I only knew portions of it). So yeah.. it's not surprising that reading it didn't suddenly bring me closer to god because I wasn't, as you said, "opening up". Thinking about one of your questions.. I'd say I never had a relationship with god. Sure, as a kid I had to pray every night before going to sleep and sometimes my family went to church, but this was never very serious or important to me.

I'd assume we've read them with different presuppositions? Of course I don't know, but I guess you've read them when you were already a believer? I've read them when I was already doubting. Or we simply take different things from the stories or have different views on what we consider to be admirable. Just one famous example that's often mentioned: Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. Many believers admire Abraham for having such strong faith while to me this is purely horrific and scary. If the translations of the bible got it wrong and he didn't actually wipe away almost all the people on earth because he regrettet making them, and he didn't create humans and helped his favorite people to kill other humans he created, and he didn't kill all the first borns in Egypt, and he didn't command the killing of people who slept with the wrong person, and he didn't give instructions on how to treat your slaves, and he didn't degrade women - ok, THEN I shouldn't take the bible as a reason to not worship god. But even if we ignore the bible stories, I would still wonder: Did he create a world that includes horrific, deadly deseases/miscarriages/natural desasters etc. even though he could have created a world without all those things? Ugh... sorry, I'll better stop my ranting now and get back to LDS-questions. I understand the words. Sadly enough, my not very helpful or explicit question was still the better option compared to the first one that came to my mind ("Whaaaat!?"). I'm sure you understand that reading something like the part I quoted sounds very alien to someone who isn't familiar with this (of course I knew about the garments, but not about this particular virtue about them) and I wasn't sure how to phrase a question without sounding derogative. But the answers you were all giving already helped!

My problem is: Studying the scriptures (mostly the bible) is what made me an atheist. The stories and messages in the bible... I don't even know where to start and I don't want to rant, so I'll just say: They didn't *inspire* me. 😏 And learning what god said and did according to the bible showed me that even if I knew for a fact that he exists, I couldn't worship him. Also, reading books about the history of the bible, how it was put together etc. didn't help either. Anyways - I just have to ask about this: I read about the garments on the lds-website and it said When worn properly, the garment provides protection against temptation and evil. What does that mean? Do you believe it protects you from *doing* evil things or that it protects you from something evil happening to you? Or both?

@estradling75 I get what you're saying. But I assume god is not just an emotion or a feeling. So if he wanted to, couldn't he do something more convincing than making people "feel" his existence or talking to people through prayer? I don't doubt that you've had this experience (and again, thanks for sharing). A few days ago, when I asked for your reasons for being so convinced about your belief, I didn't ask to somehow get convinced by those answers. I was only curious and reading them made me wish I could experience that too. Not because I have a desire to believe in a god but just to be able to comprehend what you were feeling. It made me wonder if I would suddenly be completely sure there is a god too or if I would think "weeell... it's still just a feeling after all". Anyway, what I wanted to say is: I don't "blame" people from different religions for being equally convinced that they're following the right religion - I just don't get why god (if I just assume there is one) is making this so unnecessarily complicated for all of us. Sorry for all the "god-criticism" today, but that first reason you mentioned doesn't make sense to me: So someone prays to god. God answers. God is aware that this person is not following the right church. He doesn't tell, because that person couldn't handle the truth. After death that person will get punished for following the "wrong" church (if we assume that person knew about the LDS church but rejected it).

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received. But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

Missionaries... pfft. I'm thinking bigger here! Like giving the pope a revelation that makes him realize he's actually representing the wrong church! THAT would make an impact. But seriously: (Not sure why I'm even thinking about ways to promote the church) At least where I live, hardly anyone knows what "Mormonism" even is. If you don't actively look for information, you'll never really hear or read anything about this belief. So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it. If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮

I didn't want to imply that the prophets would try to force their rules on anybody with their revelations. I was only thinking about the idea of getting certain messages out for everyone to know. You know.. God being like "I HAVE to let the world know about this!" and then announce it through his prophets. Btw: I'm not suddenly a believer who wants those things to happen - those are just random thoughts. I was thinking how much it used to upset god in the bible when people worshipped other gods or didn't follow his commandments, so it must be frustrating for him to see billions of people who don't even know about this church or worship another god - he doesn't seem to do much to change that. Oh right, I remember reading that. But what if you don't get a revelation of truth after praying about it? Or even worse: If you pray about it and feel that it's not true? Oh gosh.. there's more?! I'll read into that another time.

I see! That makes sense. @Mores and @Jane_Doe Now I noticed that I should have worded my question more clearly: I only meant advice or teachings that god wants everyone to follow - no matter if a member of the church or not. But at least this way I also learned something new. I didn't know about Section 134 before. As an non-member, when you hear that god "speaks" to prophets for the first time, you somehow expect momentous, life-changing messages for the whole world to know and not things that only affect a certain group of people. But now that I've learned that according to your belief everyone can receive revelation I guess you would say that god does give everyone of us (or is trying to give us) messages/advice etc. but it's up to us to accept it?

Thank you all for sharing your stories! They were fascinating to read. A question about living prophets: Lately there have been quite a few changes in the church. Were those decisions made by the prophets - or whoever gets to decide those things - or did they happen because of revelations? And are revelations always about things concerning the church or could they also be about things that concern everyone?

I'm sure it's annoying to be confronted with this topic agan and again, especially when you are so convinced that you are on the "right side" of the argument. I feel the same way haha. I guess that's why I really went too far with my criticism. When I started this thread, I used to make sure to only mention things that can also be found on the lds-website and not only on some "anti-mormon"-pages. This time I just repeated things I heard from those sources - which was a mistake. So, since I don't want to annoy you any longer with this topic and get even more unpopular, I'll just get back to asking questions. I'll repeat the one I already asked yesterday: When or how did you become convinced that your religion is the right one? And how did you become convinced that there's a god?

Just a quick last comment for today: I apologize if I stated nonsense about Prop. 8. and I have no problem with you correcting me or disagreeing with my view but I found it inappropriate to get personal. You may find my comments about the church offensive but I never attacked or insulted anyone on here personally, so I don't know why you think your attitude was justified.

I agree, and I admit that I'm not tolerant enough when I'm talking about church doctrines or decisions that I disagree with (I'll try to get better at this). Even though some things might look harmful to me, I know that nobody has the intention to make anybody's life miserable - especially not the "normal" members who don't have anything to do with certain decisions or actions made by the church. But I'm sure you can at least somewhat understand my position when you think of things members from other religions do, for example muslims who want the death penalty for apostates or kill for their god. I'm sure most of them think they're doing the right thing too. That would lead me to another question: When or how did you find out for yourself that your religion is the right one and the others are wrong? And what convinced you?

This is not about holding opinions in general or holding opinions that I might disagree with - it's about voicing moral opinions that are discriminating and dismissive. I mean... maybe you think being racist is "just an opinion" too, but if you voice this opinion to people of a different race, that is obviously cruel. Of course the risk of getting STD infections is getting higher when you have sex with more than one person (not sure how many people one must sleep with to be called promiscuous). But the huge difference is that I don't have to "believe" that - we can actually test and demonstrate it. Which can't be said about god. Also, I'm not sure what this has to do with gay sex. I'd assume that gay members of the church don't want to sleep with tons of people - all they want is the same rights as same-sex couples. This isn't about what I want. I was just stating what same sex-couples with kids seem to be struggling with. I have no idea why they still want their kids to get baptised. Maybe they are still active believers and don't want their children excluded from all those important "rituals" that their schoolmates and friends experience. Or the kid simply wants it. I have to throw this question in, because I don't know how this works: What if a child from an atheist household wants to get baptised? Do they have to be a certain age as well, or can they just decide that, independent from their parents' opinion? Without religion telling them that something's wrong with them, they wouldn't even feel the need to change their mindset. And how did anyone expect this to be a successful form of therapy? You can't just pray the gay away. It just seems strange that they were so engaged and financed campaigns, when this has nothing to do with their church. It seems a little over the top to try and make gay marriage illegal for a majority of people who aren't even LDS and just want to get married. Telling "their" people what they are allowed and not allowed to do is one thing, but promoting something that largely concerns people outside of the church? And (to come back to the topic) it showed same sex-couples how determined the church is to keep them from getting equal rights and how little progress it makes. Of course I'm not surprised that they supported it - but you asked me to state examples of gays getting treated poorly and that was just one of them. What? No. I was just pointing out that I'm not the only one here who has a hard time to understand another person's point of view. I'm 35 and I was today years old when I found out that not every member of the church is super nice. Wow.. I feel like a gay rights advocate - I've never spent so much time talking about this topic and I never even cared that much. But your comments sounded so condescending - the way you try to make every one of my statements sound ridiculous, so I just had to address them. So far, I was really happy with this thread and that we all managed to have civil conversations, even about "touchy" subjects but now it's getting a bit strange.

Oh come on... don't do that. I could say the same thing about people who don't seem to show a lot of empathy towards gays. Regarding the other topics I've asked questions about it was easier for me to see things through your viewpoint and accept that. With this topic it's more difficult because we see how people suffer from it today. Making them believe that the way they feel is wrong and not allowing them to express their love is pretty cruel in my opinion. Teaching them that having gay sex is one of THE worst sins. And not allowing kids of same sex-couples to get baptised until they are 18? Conversion therapy? The church supporting Prop. 8? The fact that some gay members feel like they have to marry someone from the opposite gender that they don't feel any physical attraction to... I can't even imagine how frustrating such a life must be. Of course they could just leave the church to avoid all of that - but I assume it's not that easy when you're a believer and your whole family and friends are part of the church. Again... you're right, as usual. I know others are saying the same thing, just in other words, but somehow it's always your posts who make me realize that I should be more accepting. Maybe I should just let that topic go.