[How Are Spirits Made?]

I had always assumed that because we are made in Gods Image, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother procreated spirits by having sex.

You are kidding – right?

Do the math. Several thousand new ‘spirits’ join the world population every hour. Not a lot of time for foreplay do you think?

You people are nuts.

[Garden Of Eden]

Zeke:

I realize tone is difficult to read on a message board, but your posts are sounding a little argumentative. Please remember that this board is not a place for debate, but for congenial discussion.

Thank you,

Seraphim

I’m trying to understand the church position on the Garden Of Eden. I started by reviewing the official church web site that tells me was an actual, physical; place and that it did not include death. When I questioned this most posters on this board tell me that it’s a metaphor. How can it be both?

Since the answer to this question involves my personal salivation FOR ETERNITY (which is indeed a long time) I think it deserves a hard look don’t you?

[Garden Of Eden]

Here you are doing it again, Zeke. Why? Do you believe something spiritual cannot be 'actual' or 'real'? Why?

Literal in what sense, Zeke? You do realize that there are different levels of meaning in most things we see/hear in life, don't you?

HiJolly

HiJolly – Could it be that we are discussing two different meanings of the word spiritual? Many people say they have a spiritual experience when they see a sunset or hear Beethoven’s ninth (I am one of those people). Others say they are aware of a spiritual world – a place where spirits dwell – not of this earth.

When I said that the garden was an actual place I intended to say it was not in the spiritual world. It was of this earth.

That is what the church is saying.

[Garden Of Eden]

Well, I sure think so. Remember that 'reason' is not anything like 'proof'.

HiJolly

Good - I agree with you. What are your reason(s) then?

[Garden Of Eden]

No, The garden is a literal spiritual truth but not necesarily a physical truth.

I understand what you are saying but the official church web site makes it plain that the garden was an actual place. Not a spiritual place but a real, in-this-world place.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

The church web site talks about real world things such as 'created a beautiful place on the earth', 'body of flesh and bones', 'able to walk and talk'. These are not spiritual things being described, they are physical.

I can understand how it must be difficult to except the literal meaning of these words but it seems you must.

[Garden Of Eden]

Bruce R McConkie and his father in law Joseph Fielding Smith were Bible literalists and sometimes went to great pains to justify this and to extrapolate beyond what was actually written there.

Then you are saying that the garden is not a literal truth? That there was never a physical garden?

[Garden Of Eden]

Yes, that is my belief (not knowledge).

HiJolly

But then you have to square the fact that human genes are directly related to other species that were outside the garden. As one of the church leaders said:

"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself”. - Bruce R. McConkie

Really makes it hard to follow the logic of the garden.

[The Law Of Chastity]

It's like the scripture that says that if a man lusts after a woman it is as if he has committed adultery...

Do you think that lust is adultery? If so then *every* human that has ever lived is an adulterer. Its part of what it is to be human.

[Garden Of Eden]

Do plants and animals have souls? I tend to think they don't (although they do technically have "spirits").

How do you mean that (…technically have “spirits”). Is there any reason to think that either souls or spirits are real things?

[Garden Of Eden]

To provide a perfect enviroment for man...God can only create perfection.

Do you consider yourself perfect?

[Garden Of Eden]

To be technical, which doesn't really answer the question, eating a peach doesn't kill the tree.

Yes but eating a peach does kill the individual cells of the peach…

[Garden Of Eden]

I also think that life developed and there was life and death etc. on earth at the same time as Adam & Eve were in the Garden with no death present. Simultaneously, if you will. Different circumstances. IMO.

Are you saying that life and death proceeded outside of the garden but did not occur inside? If so that would allow for natural evolution to take place everywhere but in the garden.

BTW – Did you take your moniker from that famous Quartzsite camel driver?

[Garden Of Eden]

This is very confusing to me.

If the plants and animals did not die in the garden then there could have been no eating going on. Eating a plant surly kills it. There also could have been no such thing as microbes or germs since they live at the expense of a host. And if this were so Adam and Eve could not be considered human because a human’s life depends on a host of microbes and germs to survive.

It seems to me that the ‘fall’ was really a blessing and that a second coming and a return to these conditions would be a disaster.

Or is this is simply a tale told to children to comfort them?

[Garden Of Eden]

Was there no death at all before the fall or only no death for Adam and Eve? I guess I'm asking if the plants and animals in the garden died?

[Garden Of Eden]

What is the churches teaching on the Garden of Eden? What was its purpose?