Fatboy

FB: As curvet stated. Little children can not sin, but they sure can break the law. Since Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit, what would they have to compare the consequences of their choice? God told them that if they partook of the fruit they would die. Since death had not occured, how would they know or understand what the consequences of that choice would be. Satan on the other hand told them that they would not die. Not knowing or experiencing that Satan could be lying, they followed the suggestion since they were told that is how God gained his knowledge. So even though they broke the law, and disobeyed, they did not understand the consequences of that choice. This is why the plan of God for mortality to enter into the world was a perfect plan. Ray do you believe that it was part of God's plan to bring mortality into the world or do you believe that Adam and Eve took it upon their selves and fully sinned understanding the consequences of that choice? If you believe this, then I have to ask do you believe in a God that is all knowing, and that God knew before he ever created Adam and Eve what they were going to do?

FB: In my discussion with mainstream Chrisitians they believe that sin and sin alone is the only way we can transgress the law. I have tried with out success to point out that sin is knowingly disobeying God. That is what sin is. I have stated that sin is a transgression, but not all transgression is sin. For there are laws we break without knowledge. I believe that although Adam and Eve disobeyed the Lord in the Garden of Eden, they did so without knowledge. They were as little children. Even though they were intelligent, they had not partaken of the fruit of knowledge of Good and evil. Therefore they did not have experience to determine good over evil or know the difference of it. So it was possible that Adam and Eve disobeyed without committing a sin. Therefore there is no original sin other than our mortality which makes us suseptable to death. Any other thoughts?

Fatboy--you need to read Emma's Biography "Enigma." It is meticulously documented with plentiful source material from both churches' archives, and public records. It's a wealth of information. Emma's decision was much more complex than most LDS people are told. One thing is very clear--All of Joseph Smith's "wives" were farmed out to Brigham Young and the other apostles. There is no way Emma would have anything to do with that. Also, Joseph Smith's assets were all tied up with the church's. If Brigham Young had his way, Emma would be left with all the debt, and the church would take all the assets with them to Utah. Even given the extreme circumstances of time, his treatment of her was absolutely horrid and inexcusable. This was made worse by an obvious personality clash and lack of communication. Emma tried to move on from it, but Brigham Young never got over it. This was a man who held a grudge and made the most of it. The book also contains some interesting information on the lives of Joseph and Emma's children. Their sons Alexander and David visited Brigham Young in Utah as missionaries, and years later, Joseph Smith III did as well. It's very interesting and thought provoking reading and is told from an objective point of view. I have read it years ago, and although it was well done, it is full of biased thought. It interpreted thoughts and statements which I found made it less credible. Again this was years ago, and I only read it once. My wife read it, and she did not care for it at all. Yet others read it and found it great. I will have to try and find it to answer any question specifically. It did give me a great appreciation for her. And this also led me to believe that like others who pointed out why she did not act to maintain her place in the church if the designations of her son was what was to be.

FB: Then what is our purpose?

James, the brother of Jesus was head of the church in Jerusalem. So who was the head of the church in Rome?

The same thing could be said about Christ's church immediately following his death. The early apostles were not as cohesive of a group and many people think they were. They weren't prepared for his death, even though he had repeatedly told them that it would happen. The apostles bickered and argued about doctrines, and leadership. It was many, many years before there was really any uniformity in Christian belief and practice. If this was really Christ's church, why was it all so messy and chaotic? Because we're human, and this is the way we work--even when we try to do it God's way. I disagree about the church going into some kind of limbo. The gospel was continually taught and the head of the church seemed to be Peter. There were some differences, but Christ spent forty days with them after the resurrection. I am sure they listened real intently to know how Christ wanted his church to stand.

FB: That is what I am asking. You have the founders of the RLDS who did what? They were in and out of several break off's. There is a 14 year time span that those who become RLDS who for some reason did not prepare the coming of another restoration of the original restoration, but floated around. Did Joseph Smith ordain his son to the higher priesthood? Was the church dormant. Fatboys, I answered your question. For approx. 6-8 years, they (Gurley and Marks) moved from group to group that claimed to continue the commandments of the original church, but found that each did not. God spoke to them to gather up the remnant of the people that did continue to believe in those commandments (into their own group) and he would provide a leader. And in 1860, approx. 8 years after the beginnings of the reorganization, God prompted Joseph Smith, III, to assume leadership of that group. That is when, to us, the reorganization happened, even though the group had begun to gather 8 years before. Why didn't they go to Utah and see if that religion followed the teachings as close? Why would they think that Joseph Smith III would understand what the true way was. Why did they have to go to other religions to find out they were wrong? They believed that Strang who was only a member like three months and had a letter from Joseph Smith stating he was to be the next leader. Why wouldn't the spirit tell them what was correct in the first place? Why the roller coaster ride? God told Joseph Smith Jr. not to join any of them. If God wanted the rerestore the church why didn't they receive this answer before eight years? Why let the church go into limbo and lose all they had built up for so many years? Just some things I really can quite understand.

FB: The Keys are still with Joseph Smith, but he passed the authority of these keys to the quorum of the twelve in case of death, so the keys will remain alive and well on earth. I mean why would God restore the keys to only take them away from earth after Joseph Smith's death? I don't think God would. So we have to look and see what would be the logical answer. Since Joseph Smith gave the authority of all the keys to the twelve, then they are still alive and well. Acting as a quorum, they did as they did anciently and called others to fill the vacancies. And then through the twelve who were given the authority of revelation for the whole of the church the Lord could call another to be in Joseph Smith's stead. Since Joseph Smith the III was not called as it was done in ancient times, but could have, I think that Joseph Smith III was not anything but a follower of Christ to the best of his abilities. Just my opinion of course. FB: You are exactly right. The quorum of the seventy when intact has been given the keys as a whole. The Twelve is a higher calling than the seventy. But the calling is important in the orgainization of the church as a whole. I also think that Brigham Young waited three years in becoming the President, hoping that Joseph Smith III would join them. It was apparent that Emma disliked Brigham Young. I think that this influence had much to affect her son. Think of the trials this woman went through for the church. I am sure that unless God had given her great knowledge of the importance of the work she would have left long ago. The straw that broke the camals back was his death. I don't know how I or anyone else would have been able to withstand the pressure she was under. I am sure that the pain of seeing her husband being beat, and chased and thrown in jail, etc. was to much for her to accept that her son do the same. Emma did what she thought was best for her son. She was a great woman. Hi

FB: That is what I am asking. You have the founders of the RLDS who did what? They were in and out of several break off's. There is a 14 year time span that those who become RLDS who for some reason did not prepare the coming of another restoration of the original restoration, but floated around. Did Joseph Smith ordain his son to the higher priesthood? Was the church dormant.

So if a person is dragging in their spirituality and is slacking in some areas, do you propose that they give up living their religion altogether? FB: No I do not. I was a bit hasty in my answer. I finally got to read some of the other posts and it appears as you say that he is struggling. I just came over from a couple of boards and so when I hear someone struggling, it is usually someone with a agenda to criticize the church. So I apologize. Shoot first ask questions later. i don't know whether i'm struggling, but i do know that i am lazy, very very lazy. i arrive at church about 90 mins late every sunday, pick up my scriptures from beside my bed every night and read maybe one line, and my prayers are incoherent mumblings which i make while actually flat on my back in bed falling asleep. so, do i still need to waer garments? maybe not seems to be the official church response. about this number thing - if i give them a number then i guess it should be linked to my name, and then they'll need i.d. i suppose. but i gave them my name - so surely that's enough, yet it didn't seem to matter much to them. oh well, i'll just quit wearing them. I guess the question is would be, that since you realize you are lazy, why are you? To me, more knowledge of the gospel motivates me to share that knowledge with others. It appears you are still gaining knowledge, but your approach with what you do with it is different. What would motivate you to get to church on time. Are you late to everything in your life, or is it just church?

So if a person is dragging in their spirituality and is slacking in some areas, do you propose that they give up living their religion altogether? FB: No I do not. I was a bit hasty in my answer. I finally got to read some of the other posts and it appears as you say that he is struggling. I just came over from a couple of boards and so when I hear someone struggling, it is usually someone with a agenda to criticize the church. So I apologize. Shoot first ask questions later.

I'd have to see your research, Fatboys. I have never seen anything that stated the Marks and Gurley approached Emma after JS,Jr., was killed about JS,III, taking over then. But in the meantime, he was faithful to the church that was restored (had to be, I'm sure, with Emma as his mother B) ), and lived his life. He became a lawyer, practiced law for a while till he felt the call to present himself to the church in Amboy. "They" did not convince him to lead the church. "They" just bided their time. God is the one who convinced him to approach the church. I think you are mistaken about the keys of the church. The keys are not passed on. They belong to Joseph Smith, Jr., through the whole dispensation. What is passed on is the oracles. D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5) 2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church. 2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house. Dawn, The "keys of the Kingdom" are the power, right and authority to preside over the Kingdom of God on earth and to direct all its affairs. In their fullness...only the Prophet of the Church holds all of the Keys. He may delegate any portion of that power to others...but they would only hold the keys to that particular labor. Basically...revelations given through God through his prophets are Oracles. The First Presidency are appointed "to receive the oracles for the whole church". It should also be remembered that men who receive revelations or oracles for the people...are themselves called oracles...see 2 Sam. 16:23 The First Presidency and Quorum of the 12..because they are sustained as Prophets, Seers and Revelators to the church....are known as the "living oracles". But...again...the "keys of the Kingdom" are bestowed upon the each member of the Quorum of the 12 by the President of the Church....the President being the ONLY one on earth who can exercise all of the keys. The Twelve are delegated portions of the those keys in order to direct the affairs in their particular area of labor. So...you are correct....there is a difference between the "Keys of the Kingdom" and "Oracles".....but, the "keys" are such they can be passed on and/or delegated to others. randy The keys of the kingdom were not left to Joseph Smith III, only a promise that if he remained true and faithful that the possibility was his. Since the Keys were left with the Quorum of the Twelve, most remained with the main body of the church. Had Joseph Smith III gone with the body of the church, he would have become what he was blessed to do. I am not saying he was not a good person, but he did not have the keys and the authority from his father. The stone cut out of the mountain without hands will continue to roll forth until it fill the whole earth. I just want to know what they RLDS church did for 14 years.

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

It is a new rule...I believe it was to discourage anti-Mormons from buying the garments and waving them around in public. so. does that mean if i don't have a current recommend that i don't wear my garments?? honestly, i don't feel worthy to get my recommend right now, but at the same time i haven't done anything bad! i thought wearing the garments was a commandment, but how can i do that if i can't buy new ones. i have a friend who was put on church probation last year, yet his bishop counseled him to keep wearing his garments. i'm confused. I have to say I am confused myself. I am not sure that if you no longer want to pray or study the scriptures, what difference it makes to wear garments. I know this is a bit callous and unsympathitic, but why do you know longer pray or study?

FB: Hi Jenda, I made it. Anyway I wanted to know what happened to the church between the time of the murder of Joseph Smith Jr and when Joseph Smith III. If the two aposltes who convinced Joseph Smith III to accept this calling was what God had intended, why were they members of the Strangite religion for a time?