mark44

i think LDS doctrine holds that not only is the universe old, but that every element in it had no beginning anyway, but that's it's eternal, and that we are eternal too. in other words, i have always existed, i myself had no beginning. sure i came to earth and had a mortal beginning. LDS who believe big bang may see it as a process of organization (not creation), yet i have heard of evolutionists who believe a big bang beginning scenario to the start of the universe but who refuse to consider the concept of time, matter and energy/light existing "before" the big bang. that's odd considering that that puts them in the same boat as traditional creationists like catholic creationists who teach creation ex nihilo ie time, matter and energy out of nothing but caused by god, whereas the evolutionists argue the same thing ie time, matter and energy out of nothing but with no cause, just some random chance, but that's impossible, that something came out of nothing....it's not even scientific, so why do these evolutionists hold to a beginning theory for the universe which is not supported by the current laws of physics. may be they soend too much time wrapped up in natural science and biology to even consider the implications of the standard laws of physics? anyway, i we evolved from monkey type creatures and they from the sea, what does god look like - for those who believe in human evolution but still believe LDS doctrine or any religion- ? coz who's to say we've stopped evolving, maybe in the next 3 million years we will look as follows: small thin slender bodies because we will have so much technology we don't need even the little muscle power we use today hairless as we continue evolving away from our primate beginnings big heads to house super intelligent and large brains and big big oval eyes that might explain all the UFO encounters - we are being visited by the angels who are now perfectly evolved and heavenly father looks just the same - ie no long hair and beard, but a close encounter type humanoid.

I don't have a problem with intra-species evolution, but there just isn't proof that we descended from gorillas or chimpanzees. There isn't even "proof" that birds or reptiles descended from dinosaurs, although, I admit, those are the closest they have come to proving. Do you know that half of the "human fossils" you listed are dead ends? Detours? A sub-species that we did not descend from? I do find human evolution interesting. I like to watch the specials on Discovery, etc., and learn quite a bit from them. But what I have learned is that, so far, they have not found anything that connects us to chimps. First, you use the term "proof". That is strawman. Scientists NEVER use the word proof. The better term would be "best explanation" or best theory. The "best" explanation for the changes that can be seen in the human fossil record is that we, humans, are decended from ancestors that were also common to Chimps, and less directly to other primates (since we share the biggest % of our genes with Chimps). You are simply wrong that there is no evidence of "micro evolution", there is plenty evidence that life forms and branches of living things have changes drastically over time. ONe thing there is NO evidence for is the idea that living things were zapped into existance in a single "miraculous" beginning. The rational person doesn't seek for absolute proof, he seeks for the best explanation for the existing evidence. Find me a credible scientist (biological) that thinks the fossil record and other evidence points "best" at some sort of instantaneous creation, and I will show you 99 others that say evolution is the best explanation. Frankly, I don't think you can name even ONE PhD Biologist that thinks evolution didn't happen. Cal: so you admit you believe in evolution because it's "the best explanation." so, you admit you don't have proof. you know what, gravity is no longer the best explanation to explain why an apple falls to the eart, gravity is now a law of science (though of course we don't know how absolute it is, einstein showed that). also, "best explanation" is such a "subjective" term. i still don't know how you can explain the cambrian explosion. in your own words, 99% of species appeared all of a sudden. also, answer me this, what was there "before" the big bang? i think we need to move more into astrophysics rather than natural science in order to really put a nail in the coffin of evolution.

What movie? the one in the title of this thread. you are not following the messages properly. you 've already asked me if i was married after having replied plenty to a former post in which i more than stated my situation.

i saw this movie a few weeks ago in SLC and was down in Provo and wanted to see it again, but the movie theater told me it was not gonna be shown there! it's a PG family friendly movie and one of the most moving films i have ever seen. I think it would be a hit among LDS church goers and families.

what an odd bishop. like Ray posted, he should be stressing faith and repentence, not islamic traditions. he should be telling his ward not to purchase big SUV's fully financed, to avoid excessive debt, not to get tatoos plastered over one's bodies, for women to dress modestly, things that have some grain of logic to them. yeh, satan stands close to your left hand, so don't take sacrament with that! he might jump in to the bread and defile it! what stupid old wives paganistic doctrine.

i hope that makes you feel better.

come to think of it, i couldn't care a less what anyone, least of all god, thinks. this life is already like the torment i have read about in the scripture, a living and daily lake of fire and brimstone, and anything, even the lowliest level of the lowest kingdom, will be better than enduring these flames.

family, friends, acquaintances, and church leaders and members all seem to equate the following with success - being married, having children, an education and/or training, accomplishment in one's field (whether it be plumbing or medicine), and for men - making enough money to support a nonworking wife and at least two children if not more. i think though that this definition of success could leave people frustrated. it has made me frustrated and angry, because much of it depends on someone else's decision and so i don't have control over it eg someone had to decide to marry me, to have children, someone else has to decide give me a job and how much to pay me. but reading the scriptures i get a diifrrent story. just a few simple commandments love god and neigbor, don't steal, keep law of chastity and word of wisfom, pay a tithe, fast, read scrips, pray, and go to church. question: if i do all the above commandments, but never marry even though i want to and pursue it, never make much money, am just average at my career, or if married do not make enough to give my family a comfortable living - does that matter in god's eyes, can i still go to exaltation eventually.

one huge problem for any LDS who accept evolution is the doctrine of accountability. evolution was allegedly a very sloooowwww process ie miniscule changes and alterations taking place over millions upon millions, even billions, of years. it took at least a few millions for a fish fin to even look anything remotely like a webbed foot, or a wing perhaps. so, it must have been the same with humans. okay... in which case, at what point did man become accountable? i mean, it's impossible that the sun came up one day and that very same day pre-homo-sapien suddenly became fully fledged homo-sapien and accountable for his actions. so, accountability and consciousness must have developed real slow too. also, who were all the unfortunate pre-existant spirits who had the poor luck of being sent into pre-homo-sapien or neanderthal bodies??? i'm sorry, evolution, at least human evolution, is contrary to church doctrine. also, how come the oldest buildings in the world only date back to about 5000BC. i believe jericho is the oldest remaining city. history begins in about the same era, with sumeria being the first civilization and no evidence of any civilization (in the sense of a civil society) having existed before it. what, cavemen evolved into a civilization like sumeria overnight!? what? crude paintings of animals on cave walls evolved into sumerian cuiniform overnight!? so we now have missing links, not only in the fossil record, but in the historical record, and in the written and speech record. most damning of all is the timeline used by evolutionists themselves. "the cambrian explosion" marks a time when all of a sudden, in one millionth of a second on evolutions long slow timeline, all these complicated lifeforms appeared out of nowhere! that's why they call it an "explosiion" coz it didn't happen gradually like evolution should do.

the scriptures say that christ was tempted in all things, so do you think he was tempted to kill, i mean, he got pretty mad with the money changers and would be charged with criminal assault in this day and age....and what about homosexual feelings, i mean, john resting his head on him at the last supper, you'd be scorned at in this day and age for doing such a thing, especially in lds culture.

also, possession doesn't make me innocent in the matter because i choses the thoughts and feelings which invited the spirits in in the first place. so it's still sin on my part. but i don't engage in homosexual acts. but sometimes i think my anger towards god is so bad that it often seems like even gay practising people would be shocked and that i'm commmititing a worse sin.

also, in the new testament we find many ailments associated with possession by evil spirits. mary magdelene was possessed by seven of them. they also caused paralysis, dumbness and so on. if we as lds are saying that's just how the new testement writers interpreted tghings given their lack of scientific enlightenment we have today, than that kind of casts doubt on the entire gospel of christ. he spoke to the demons, they knew him, and he forbade them to discuss prior things iwth him. i believe there are evil spirits in or near me. i don't think possession means i have to float on the ceiling like in movies, though i'm sure this happens in extreme cases and i saw similar things on my mission in south america. the guy who wrote reaod less traveled also thinks some people are "perfectly possessed" in other words, there's no resistance to the demonic influences and so they appear quite normal and are therefore quite evil, like hitler. i am not gonna kill myself, but i'm angry. i often kneel in prayer and half way through scream profanity up at the ceiling. it's like something inside of me that hates christ so much whereas i really love him.

I have no choice. i don't have the money too use professionals whether they are doctors or pyschiatrists. I always taught to do all that you can do and after that god will help. Well "all that you can do" includes telling the truth. You would be amazed at how much better you will feel. :) why should i tell anybody that i am possessed by a gay demon, or demons if more than one? yeh, the bishop if want an excorcism, but not people in my ward and evryone has no right to know.

I have no choice. i don't have the money too use professionals whether they are doctors or pyschiatrists. I always taught to do all that you can do and after that god will help.

Guys, I am very touched from your sincere posts... Great Job! Mark, My heart goes out to you. How difficult it must be to keep up with all of your different stories. I agree you do need to seek out professional help. You shouldn't have to go through this alone and a professional would be a great asset to you. Do you have health insurance? Many times their will be counceling services available with just your co-pay. unfortunately i had to quit my health insurance because it was provong just too expensive. anyhows, it never covered mental health services (i checked into it), but that's no surpise coming from that money-grabbing institution they call IHC. my only hope now is the god will actually make a miraculous intervention somehow. i read in the bible that jesus actually healed people and stuff and that after he died his apostles did the same. never quite understand why the lds i've encountered in my life have issues with this. their outlook on disease, ill fortune, poverty etc seems much more hinduistic than traditional protestant or evangelical christianity. i don't think we are supposed to endure trials as a test, but that we have trials so we can call on god and then through faith witness his awsome power when he heals us totally. i also read a book about the shrink who wrote 'the Road less traveled" , i think he's popular among LDS professionals, and he is a christian who firmly believes in satan and the power of satan, and that satan can do 4 things to people - which is in order 1. to tempt them, 2. to attack them 3. to oppress them and 4. possess them. i think satan is tempting, attacking and oppressing me with thoughts of darkness, inferiority, nihilism, homosexuality and so on. i believe that there are evil spirits who want to get inside of me and experience sex and stuff like that. and i am thinking about whether is should ask my bishop whether a excorcism can be performed (i don't know the word for it in the church) to get the devils out of me or at least so they don't hover around me anymore. when i was a missionary in chile i encounterd many possessed individuals. it's not myth. it happens plenty. one man woild hang about the cemetary just like the guy in the bible, no joke, and when we did gospel street demonstrations he would walk up to the picture of jesus and screetch and blaspheme and just scream and scream all the time sweating and hitting himself.