Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

When it comes to the first article of faith: We believe in God the Father, in his son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost the Christian Apologist is quick to relate to members of the LDS Faith as to the reason why the Mormon Religion is not biblical, heretical and dangerously erroneous. The Christian Apologist asks questions that are based upon the bible - Here oh Israel, the Lord is One. They, then, tend to ask how could their be three Gods who are separate and distinct from one another when the Bible teaches that There is only One God?

Having spent some time defending the LDS Faith and then Attacking the LDS Faith, I have recently discovered in my studies that the Christian Apologist are the ones who are in error and erroneously teaching false doctrine. Why? Simply put, one question that is not being asked - Who was and is Israel's God? It is when one actually sits down and studies this out, that they discover the truth that the Prophets from Joseph Smith on down have always emphatically taught as being fundamentally true and scripture.

Let us begin with the exposition of the famous couplet passage quoted by Christian Apologist:

Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one - Dueteronomy 6:4

This is one of many passages that are used to teach that throughout the Bible there is only One God. According to Christian traditions, doctrines and teachings, the idea is that not only is there One True God, but this God is manifested in what is commonly known as the Trinitarian doctrine. And, that this God is spirit. But, before we get into the heart of the discussion, one must distinguish the nature of the Old testament teaching and understanding of God from the New Testament. Why? Because before the New Testament and the earthly ministry of Christ, we have only the Old Testament, the Judaic teachings and traditions on who they believed God was and is.

Thus, the very first passage here that is used to defend the Trinitarian doctrine must be examined. It is here that we begin our understanding as to the nature of who Israel God was and Is, and it provides the diving platform to extend into the nature and understanding of how and why Christ distinguished himself physically and spiritually from his Father. In essence, it is the first point in how members of the LDS Faith are able to stand and biblically refute the obfuscated doctrine known as the Trinitarian doctrine.

Deuteronomy 6:4 is explicit. Yes, it does emphatically claim that there is only one God. But it says much more than there being One God, it signifies who this one God is: Here O Israel! THE LORD meaning, in Hebrew, this Lord is Yehovah (YHWH). Meaning, the Existing One. And, the one true God to Israel. Essentially, what this is saying in its proper context is: Here O Israel! YHWH is our God and YHWH is one. It is in this context that we begin to understand that yes, YHWH is one God - but who is YHWH? In order to answer this question, we need to go to a very interesting passage of scripture that is as we have from the Masoretic Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 32:9For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

When we look at this, there does not seem to be anything wrong with both passages. Yet, it is when we look at two separate words in Hebrew that we begin to see a distinction. In verse 8, we see that the term "Most High" is used. In Hebrew, High is defined in several ways: 1) High, Upper 2) of Davidic King exalted above Monarchs 3) Highest Most High 4) Name of God 5) Of rulers and monarchs or angel-princes. In this sense, and scripture passage context, we can rule out it meaning Davidic Kings exalted above monarchs, rulers, monarchs and angel-princes. This leaves the general definition of High and Upper, Highest Most High and the Name of God. One can immediately see the contradiction rendered because in verse 9, we read LORD as the original Hebrew of YHWH. What is also interesting to note is that before the term YHWH in verse 9, the Hebrew term for Most High is Elyone - or in a more transliteration - elyown.

Another word of note on this is that verse 8 mentions how Elyown provides the nations their inheritance and sets their boundaries according to the number of the Children of Israel. There is an illogical mathematic computation that does not add up. Why? There are Twelve tribes of Israel. Twelve Sons who fathered Twelve tribes that made up the nation and people of Israel. Yet, there were seventy nations mentioned in what is known as "The Table of Nations" according to Genesis 10-11. It is this table of Nations that is established after the Deluge and the begining of Noah and his family. Another interesting aspect to this is the original rendering of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 that reads this way:

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (bene elohim, LXX: "angels"). For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage... (32:8-9)

This, of course, is according to Jewish Tradition and nature. Thus, understanding the nature between the Most High (Elyown) and YHWH shows that there is a definite distinction. Even without Deuteronomy 32:8-9, there is still the proof as to who Israel's God was (and still is) when he manifested himself to Moses at the Burning Bush, commanding Moses to go unto the Elders of Israel:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14).

When we look at this passage here, we again see a conflict, because the Hebrew word here is Elohiym. Eloyhiym telling Moses: "I AM", in Hebrew is Hayah - Haw-yaw. Essentially meaning one of the following:

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

• (Qal)
  • ----- 1a
• to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
• to come about, come to pass
  • to come into being, become 1a
• to arise, appear, come 1a
• to become 1a
  • to become 1a
  • to become like 1a
  • to be instituted, be established
  • to be 1a
• to exist, be in existence 1a
• to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
• to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
• to accompany, be with
• (Niphal)
  • to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
  • to be done, be finished, be gone

Since Elohiym does not mean anything regarding Existence, but YHWH means the Existing One, the fact that this may very well have originally been rendered And YHWH said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM. Or, in other words, the existing one has sent you.

How do I come to this conclusion? Mere context. When we look at the begining passage of scripture, we come across this:

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. (Exodus 3:2-6).

Angel here in Hebrew is Mal'ak mal-awk. Which means - messenger, representative, the theophanic angel, angel and messenger. In the context here, it specifically says, the Mal'ak of YHWH appeared unto moses. Furthermore, we read that the subsequent passages mention the Hebrew YHWH and Elohyim. When we look at the definition of Elohyim, we find that it is a plural meaning:

• (plural)
  • rulers, judges
  • divine ones
  • angels
  • gods
• (plural intensive - singular meaning)
  • god, goddess
  • godlike one
  • works or special possessions of God
  • the (true) God
  • God

So, in order to identify the nature of the person speaking to Moses, we are left with logical reasoning and conclusion that it is one of two people - either the Mal'ak of YHWH, or YHWH's messenger or YHWH himself that appeared unto Mose. It is the latter. Why? because the context of the passage identifies who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is YHWH. What is not interpreted by appropiate contextual rendering is Elohyim, even though the Hebrew word is used. Why? Because Elyhoim is not the God of Israel, YHWH is the God of Israel. This goes back to the original Jewish tradition of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 where YHWH's alottment was the Children of Israel, it is YHWH who is the I AM.

I will leave it here for discussion. Even though there is much more, I would like some of your thoughts, comments, questions. There is definitely more that will be developed but I will leave it at this.

[Ankh]

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,

Excellent post... and a subject I find most fascinating. For so long, as a former evangelical Christian, you always were under the assumption that the LORD in the O.T was speaking of the Father, and thus, that is how you often interpreted it... which in turn lead to misunderstanding, which lead to misinterpreting it throughout the O.T.

For years I went in circles looking at it this way, not realizing that most often LORD was speaking of the Son/Yahweh. It wasn't until earlier this year upon re-investigating the LDS faith that I realized that the LORD (Yahwah) of the O.T was in actuality the "Firstborn Son of Elohim", and it was Him who was given the nation of Israel as an inheritance, thus, it's King (Isaiah 44:6), Redeemer (Isaiah 48:17), LORD (Isaiah 37:20) , God (Isaiah 43:3), Saviour (Isaiah 43:11), father (Isaiah 63:16) and Ruler (Micah 5:2).

I find it most challenging nowadays to try and prove this unto those who still read the O.T with the assumption that the LORD is the Father. Now don't get me wrong, LORD/YHVH is at times used interchangeably between the Father and the Son, example: Genesis 19:24, but in the majority of the O.T it is the Son/YHVH speaking or being spoken of.

When reading John 8:58 do we not have a dead giveaway of who the "I AM" was in the O.T? Jesus told the Jews over and over again that they did NOT KNOW THE FATHER (John 7:28. 8:19, 54-55) even though they claimed that their one Father was God (John 8:41) so for Christ to tell then that He was the great "I AM" just blew them away, so much so that they took up stones to stone Him and even asked Him earlier, "Who art thou" (John 8:25) They just could not understand who was before them even when Christ told them that though they believed and trusted in Moses, it was Moses who wrote of Him (John 5:45-47) signifying the Torah spoke of Him.

Is it not the same today? There are still many who do not know who Christ was/is, and misinterpret the O.T "God of Israel" as being the Father... especially when reading Deuteronomy 6:4 as you have noted. But this misinterpetation can be cleared up quite easily if we look to the "restored gospel" along with the Bible... for have we not read that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established? (Matt. 18:16)

"And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD/YHVH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:3)

WHO is the God of Israel?

"And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come. (3 Nephi 11:13-15)

"Who do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 18:13)

Look forward to more correspondence SeattleTruthSeeker :)

Ankh

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

It is definitely one of them eye opening teachings that flatten you and your entire preceptions of who Israel's God. The one thing that always got me were passages like Matthew 25 where Christ laments how often he had gathered Israel like a hen gathering her chicks.

It is in this sense and truth that Israel did have one God and that this God actually was the pre-incarnate Christ who came to redeem mankind.

It is when we take the blinders off and approach scripture honestly, that we see how many times Christ refers to Israel as being their God in the New testament that in this sense, Israel's God truly was one God and that God was YHWH/Jesus Christ. This leaves the question as to who the Father and Spirit are because, the Evangelical Christian is faced with a very serious delimma, that dilemma being the separate distinct identies of the Father from the son.

[Ankh]

Greetings again SeattleTruthSeeker,

Yes brother that is a good one (Matthew 23:37) to indicate that Christ was the "God of Israel"

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I was always taken by the testimony of Nathanael in John 1:49 when first confronting Christ...

"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Wow!... what a powerful testimony of who this man was who was before Nathanael. And this revelation to Nathanael was BEFORE Peter had his in Matthew 16:16.

What is most interesting is how Nathanael relates the "Son of God" with being the "KIng of Israel." Because in Isaiah 44:6 we have the LORD (Yahweh) saying this Himself...

"Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

In Zephaniah 3:15 we read this...

"The LORD (Yahweh) hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD (Yahweh), is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

So without a doubt we can see that the "King of Israel" was Yahweh and Nathanael testifying that this Rabbi before him was the "King of Israel" who in turn was the "Son of God." leaves no confusion as to WHO the "King of Israel" was. And to think... most of the religious leaders didn't have a clue. (John 8:25, 53)

Israel's God truly was one God and that God was YHWH/Jesus Christ. This leaves the question as to who the Father and Spirit are because, the Evangelical Christian is faced with a very serious delimma, that dilemma being the separate distinct identies of the Father from the son.

Yes... a very serious dilemma indeed.

Ankh

[Ankh]

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,

At the end of this educational post you wrote this...

"I will leave it here for discussion. Even though there is much more, I would like some of your thoughts, comments, questions. There is definitely more that will be developed but I will leave it at this.

SeattleTruthSeeker, I for one look forward to you're further development of this post ~ "Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine"

Also, since I have resurrected this post from the (sleeping) archives -zzzz- how about others offering their thoughts on this wonderful subject of Jehovah (the Son) being the God of Israel (3 Nephi 11:13-14) vs the Father (Elohim).

There is much confusion regarding this in Christiandom. Let's shine a little light on the subject... OK?

Good Evening to all

Ankh