Lucifer Day Star Son of Dawn

[truthwalker]

The passage (NRSV): 14:12

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

I want to discuss the text here. if we read carefully it says: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds"

Where were satan when he wanted to ascend into heaven, above the heights of the clouds. It happened BEFORE he fell. And he were on a planet with clouds. Possibly Earth?

If we are to take the story of the time we were in heaven with God nothing added nothing removed. How does this fit with this text?

"mount of assembly in the far north" seems like a council in the far north. Perhaps another galaxy or a mountain on earth?

The original version is that we lived on kolob with God. Kolob is a chrystal fire planet. Where were the clouds there? Water?

Can someone explain this for me?

It also seems like he shook kingdoms.. what kingdoms if he havent fell yet. Obviously isaiah is referring to a time before the garden of Eden.

Put this together with Jeremiah 4:23-27

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (KJV)

This is obviously also a period before Adam and Eve and the garden of eden.

There were cities. No man were there.. if it were the flood of noah at least 8 men would be there. Also heaven didnt have any light. this was not the conditions on the flood of noah.

http://www.frankcaw.com/PreAdamite-Creation.html

[truthwalker]

I will also comment on "who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?"

What prisoners. He seems to refer to a war where Satan took physical prisoners. He made the world like a desert. This can refer to a time before the garden of Eden but also Mars. Mars is like a desert, Satan could be the ruler over that planet and earth.

If he commited these crimes on earth its logical that he was brought down from heaven again to this earth and that he regained his authority over this planet after the fall of adam and eve. Adam and Eve received the planet after the fall of Lucifer with his kingdoms on earth before the garden of Eden. Explain to me the clouds.

[BenRaines]

Literally or figuratively? I believe that the scriptures often speak of things figuratively. Those spirits that followed Satan in his rebellion were not allowed to go home. They will forever be spirits, never to obtain a body and be allowed to progress.

Was it a physical desolation or a spiritual one?

I have shared this before in posts but I love this saying that my wife has on the fridge.

"We are not human beings here on Earth to experience spiritual things but spirit beings here to experience mortal things."

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

so when it works for our/your purposes its figurately? and when we want to make a statement about something its obviously literally. What a easy and smooth way of not answering the question. tada tada.. then everything is possible to believe.

is our belief based on scriptures or hints?

Then put it on another perspective. Pauls scripture about baptism of the dead. that could also be figurately. Jesus Christ died on the cross, also figurately. I can go on and on forever. Are you a scholar in hebrew? what makes you then think that this statement about satan is figurately. Who supports it? do you have a quote?

Because. If we read the text figurately AND literally.. as hebrew often is. Then the result is quite different. I sure hope mormonism idea about who satan is rest on more solid scriptures than this. can anyone give us the right "literally" scriptures about Satan. the premortal life, war in heaven and so on. Lets make a study about our enemy.

[BenRaines]

I was asking you a question. Do you take everything literally? It appears so from your answer. I was not looking for snide remarks.

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

No.. i dont, but its an interpretation when we should take the message in the bible or book of mormon literally or figurately. Your standpoint were that we ought to take this verse figuratelly so that it fits into your presuppositions.

But thats ok for me. Its a forum right? people with different opinions.

[BenRaines]

So how do you choose which to take literally and which to take figuratively?

After just a brief review of the NRSV I see that it was a group of religious individuals who chose to make their changes to the bible to as to be more politically correct. I personally do not see that as a reason to change scripture. I know that this is a little off track from the original intent of the post but since you chose to use this as your source of reference.

Ben Raines

[inquirer_Jn1717]

This passage is always tricky, because you can even ask the question: does this refer to Satan at all?

It is definitely referring to Nebachadnezzer (sp?), the king of Babylon, but many feel it also refers to Satan at the same time. And there are some good reasons for this:

-he is described as having been in Eden,

-he is described as being a "cherubim," a type of fearsome angel with four heads (man, bull, lion, eagle), a flaming sword and riding a chariot.

And yet this could all be pure hyperbolic language, commonly used by the poets of ancient kings, "deifying" them (though in this case the self-deification of the king is met with the striking contrast of his humiliation). In fact, the title "Morning Star, Son of the Dawn" (Lucifer) was often used to designate royalty, the title is even used of Jesus!

I am not sold just yet on any particular interpretation of this text, except to say that it at least refers to the Babylonian king. So I do not know for sure if Satan ever uttered the "5 I wills," but I wouldn't put it past him.

Now here is a question for you: in all the LDS literature I've read (scripture or otherwise) it was not that Satan wanted to be God which lead to his fall, but that he had a different plan of salvation which God chose against. Are both accounts true?

[inquirer_Jn1717]

NRSV? vs. KJV?

I go for NASB...or sometimes NLT with a BLT...my translation can beat up your translation!

[BenRaines]

inquirer, it is my understanding that it was Satan's pride that caused his fall. He wanted the glory, Christ wanted all glory to the Father.

There is also reference to this War in Heaven in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:7-9

Ben Raines

[BenRaines]

I could go for a MLT. Mutton, lettuce and tomato. MLT, from The Princess Bride :)

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

i look around and read different point of views on the matter LDS and non LDS. And then i pray about it and choose wich translation figurately or literally is right. The question is not NRSV vs KJV. what i claim is that Satan was a king, a leader over this planet for a pre adamite race, maybe an angelic race or a Nephilim. Long before 4000 years before Christ when Adam was born. Graham Hancock says that the pyramid was built 10500 BC. It is possible that Satan built it to mimick Gods city jerusalem or another town in heaven. That is my point. Finis Dake Jennings wrote a book Gods plan for man. You can find the "gap theory" there. I believe it to be true.

But this in a way contradict LDS teachings. Or they can be mixed together. Satan could be a King on earth waging war in other galaxies, recruiting angels. And then went to Kolob to dethrone God.. after that he was defeated and thrown back to earth where the kings on earth saw him.

[BenRaines]

Very interesting thinking. I do find the pyramids very interesting and amazing that those who built them were able to find the exact center of the earth and the axis of the earth and put there pyramid in that place. Considering when they were built be it 10,000 years ago or only 4,000.

Did you see the reference to Revelation 12:7, I think it was. Where the War in Heaven is referenced also?

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

I want to put a physical aspect on it. not just "spiritual" wich is also matter but finer than our physical. So spiritual is in another word finer physical matter. God acts in a spiritual way that effect us physical. All his miracles affects us physical, Jesus made fishes, raised dead, healed sick, crossed the red sea and so on. I dont believe the war in heaven to be only spiritual. If Jesus was so powerful that he was considered a God as a spirit. A God for the israelites in the desert. And he created unnumerous worlds before this. If Satan were number two in line. he must have been equal powerful. And its hard to believe that he gave up his authority and power over a discussion in heaven. I believe it were a full scale technological spiritual war wich has never ended yet. Because also Jesus will fight on harmageddon with a symbolic sword from his mouth on a white horse. This time he will kill all resistance. He will take control and power over this earth and all armies on earth wich physical spiritual force.. Its not a fairytale, its the greatest hollywood movie ever.

[truthwalker]

Finally... i just want to remark the fact that Jesus as a spirit in the desert for the israelites asked them to make a animal sacrifice so that he could smell the good smell from the roasted animal. Hmm.. smell? how can a "spirit" smell physical matter? He must have a nose, and breath with his lungs. sorry, spiritual lungs. Anyway. This spiritual body sounds very much like an ordinary fleshly body. Maybe angels in heaven have a physical body and only the dead have a "spirit" body. Because all angelic encounters in the bible suggests them to have physical bodies. They eat for example.

[BenRaines]

Not sure of the technology at the time but I believe that it was a spiritual war and that the 1/3 that followed Satan were cast out. Not sure if it was a numerical 1/3 or that third group. It could have been a much bigger number than 1/3 or less.

I believe our spirits can suffer much greater harm that our physical bodies. Physical body dies but spirit lives on. Spirit living on but excluded from a Heavenly Father's presence seems much worse to me that mortal death.

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

Yes.. the war in heaven, the dragon with his tail. I know that verse. Actually i have read the scriptures all my life in my way. To understand. But the pyramids is not the only great wonder. Tiahunaca if i spell it right, stones in Baalbek. Google it. They are amazing. Impossible even for modern man with cranes to lift and transport. Yet they did it. Check out Gilgal Rephaim. The circle built by Giants. I must say, that its a great amount of literature from non LDS sources. I feel the LDS sources have limited themselves, they circle around with LDS doctrine as a base. I like Skousen though. He goes in some way beyond the normal LDS thinking. There are so many good Christian schoolars that i respect. 5 years ago i was angry with other christians that they didnt understand that the book of mormon was true. But today i am angry with mormons that they dont understand that the Nephilim did exist among other things non LDS authors talk about. We need to broad our mind and read everything we can get our hand on. Even Hitlers Mein Kampf wich i have read. To understand, to get educated. To controll information and not get controlled by media, school or government or for that matter LDS leadership. Their intent are good, and many of their publications i do appreciate. But today, they have missed totally the UFO Nephilim question wich i believe is the last days deception.

[BenRaines]

I have always read counsel to read of the best of books. I do not take that only to mean the classics. I believe that President Hinkley was very well read. Not only scriptures, classics but other texts as well. While they are not the doctrine of the church they have great interest for those who read.

Now for those who wish to sit and be entertained, I kills me those who sit and say "I'm bored", then they will never read this nor come to any understanding.

I have read and discussed with others who study the scriptures regarding the Nephilim. Nephilm in the time of Noah are the ones I speak of. I have not studied the UFO Nephilim.

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

I recommend Jonathan Grey Dead mens Secret. World-Mysteries.com

Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! Textual Controversy: Mischievous Angels or Sethites? - Chuck Missler - Koinonia House

I just posted some good links. This world is hard to understand and it takes a lot of effort to do understand. It has taken me roughly 10 years to get where i am right now. I recommend Alex Jones and his movies. This is out of the subject it seems but i believe that it is all connected on a great spider web. Or pyramid if you want to.

You americans are in big trouble. Take 911 for example. It is clear that Bush is responsible. Your government have deceived you. And its easy to cry out conspiracy theory. Steven E Jones. Joel Skousen and other have a website Home - LatterdayConservative.com - Quotes, Articles & Downloads from LDS Prophets on America, Freedom, Constitution. our awful situation is a great article. You mormons in america must understand that your government have lied to you and that some there are in war against americans and humanity. get outside mainstream media. Get outside for a while LDS teachings and read other things, listen to other people. be humble about it. is it true that George Bush, the neocons, CIA, NSA and the military, the super elite carried out the 911 attacks? YES.. its true.. realise it, get a grip of yourself, wake up to reality. Do something about it. otherwise will China and Russia attack USA and destroy you. It is the super elite that has funded China and Russia to become super powers again to destroy America, the US dollar against amero and destroy the US constitution. Implement the new world order, the antichrist eventually. chip everyone, mix human and animal dna, create the nephilim again.. and so on.

This is going on right now.. wake up.. dont wait for the prophet to speak. Do your own research.

[truthwalker]

I really wish to help mormons, i have been a mormon all my life and i have a strong faith in this church. But nowadays i have my doubts on the leadership and of some doctrines about what happened in human history. I have seen that mormons lack knowledge in so many areas that i have come to the conclusion that they maybe are not inspired from God. I dont want to think that, but these times are not easy to live in and understand. I would like to meet the leadership in USA and get organised. But if we agree in some subjects, we disagree in others. To me it is most important today to expose and defeat "the new world order" super elite movement, The UFO connection between US government and angelic fallen angels cooperating together. What else is a threat in the world. It is secret combinations that have already overthrown america. You havent just realised it yet. These secret combinations the book of mormon warned us about. These secret combinations killed the jaredite nation, the nephite nation and today the anglosaxian US nation. You are on the brink of destruction and yet you dont know it. Remember the words of Jesus when he will come, some will just be lifted up, others stay in the field and work. he will come as a thief. It will be suche surprise to ordinary people. They will work, eat, live and then the end comes like that. We mormons know a lot. But we need to be humble to others, scientist, journalists, authors, pastors. in some cases they know more than us, in other cases they have knowledge in various fields that exceeds us. Mormon nation is a small nation 12 million. We cant cover all knowledge on earth.

[john doe]

I think you underestimate the LDS people in general. We're not as uneducated as you like to think we are. We follow the counsel of our leaders because we have testimonies that they are called of God. We have always been encouraged to expand our learning. We don't tell people to ignore science, we are encouraged to seek out and embrace science, truth and knowledge. Just because we don't believe that God flies around in the Millenial Falcon does not make us uneducated, slack-jawed yokels.

[truthwalker]

Prove it. The truth is that mormons blindly follow the leaders of the world and the governments because we are taught to do so, even from articles of faith. So we have a lot of mormons in CIA, they like us. Because we obey them. Exactly what nazi mormons did in Germany, there were a lot of them there to. So John Doe. what do you think about Steven E Jones and Alex Jones. You talk about that you in Utah and US mormons are so educated. Then prove it. give me your opinon about what i have talked about on this forum, webpages i have been given and books you can read. And how do you try to change the world, except of preaching the gospel, and preaching the gospel, and preaching the gospel? There must be more things in this world than always preaching the gospel. We have a high tech society with laws everywhere both in law and science and organisation. I know mormons are high educated.

Im just saying that you are uneducated on nephilim, UFO and New World Order.

It feels like you are above those things, like you dont need it. You have revelations. You dont need to read my suggestions, because you feel in your heart it is wrong.

Believe me, i have meet 400 missionaires from United States here in Sweden, during my mission i have meet even more. I know you americans, sometimes you just live in a dream fantasy world. Its either black or white, not balanced. everything sugarcoated.

Everything wonderful, amazing, superlatives... Its not how we express ourself in Sweden, we are more moderate in general, careful. Of course people are different in all of Europe, and so are people from different states. But when i see an american i instantly recognise you. Dont get me wrong, i like americans, But sometimes. Wake up man. Its not holloywood, its not the tabernacle choir. Its just the fact. realise it. God is a human being, with a star fleet. yes maybe Millenial Falcon :)

How can you else explain from the psalms that he have thousands of chariots. What are these chariots? And Hezekiel said they had Wheels. Not feet. How can an angel, a physical being have Wheels? thats a mechanical thing. Explain that to me.. please.

[BenRaines]

truthwalker, I am curious how many Nazi Mormons you have met? I have had the opportunity to live in a ward here in Nevada where we had an elderly man who was a young boy during World War II. His father was the branch president. They suffered many hardships due to their unwillingness to join the Nazi party. He was forced to join Hitler Youth as a young boy, sort of a forced Boy Scouts. His family experienced great hardships due to his father's opposition to the Nazi party, endless work details and constantly under the threat of death for not signing with the Nazi party. I have also read of others who gave up their lives to not join or fight for the Nazis.

If we are proving things I guess it would be up to you to prove yours too. Prove that God is human in a flying ship.

Ben Raines

[truthwalker]

I must admit that whats i have heard about mormons joining CIA and Hitlerjugend. But my point was that mormons generally more than others obey and submit to governments wether they are communist, nazi or capitalist governments. I can not prove to you that God flies a spaceship. but i can give you this website.. check it out. I have his book.

The Bible UFO Connection

[BenRaines]

You are correct that most LDS are law abiding citizens in the countries where they live. I would also say that I believe more LDS are prepared to go without government than depending on government for their support and food.

CIA recruits LDS for their high standards and language skills and having lived in other countries. If you do not have major vices then you cannot be targeted as easily as those who drink, gamble, cheat on their wives, etc. Not saying it doesn't happen to LDS members but as a lesser percentage it does.

Ben Raines