Amillia Posted January 13, 2005 Author Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 12 2005, 12:58 PM Cal,My wife grew up in Santa Ana (now 90% Mexican, largely monoglot and with a large "undocumented" population). My mother in law still works in the schools there. I'll just say that your picture of illegal immigrants coming here for work only, with no thought whatsoever for public benefits, is not universally correct. Even for those who come here to work, they come here for the whole package -- which, in California, includes generous public assistance, whose providers are prohibited from inquiring into the legal-residence status of its recipients.Mass immigration, legal and illegal, depresses labor costs, and allows American businesses to run a Third World economy in parallel with the mainstream one. If you aren't happy with the increasing gap in this country between the rich and poor, you must at least consider the influence on this divide of importing what is essentially a servile helot class.You could probably double the labor costs to McDonald's without having any really painful effect on the price of a Big Mac. Labor costs are a surprisingly small proportion of production costs in those sectors where immigrant labor predominates. Labor costs make up the costs of about 10% of the cost of produce, for example. I'd frankly prefer to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce than deal with the other consequences of mass illegal immigration, including population pressure (with concomitant housing shortages causing runaway home prices), traffic, strains on the education and healthcare systems, crime, etc.You prefer not to address these realities and sum everything up with a simplistic "You just don't like Mexicans." I'm not going to fall back on the old "I have Mexican friends" defense, because frankly that's none of your business. I only say it would be better for the United States if Mexican society weren't such a dysfunctional shambles that it impels millions of people to come here.I say, measure their right to be here witht he same stick you use to measure the rights YOUR ancesters had to come here.I say, measure their right to be here with a more generous measure. After all, the native inhabitants fought my ancestors tooth and nail to deny them the right to live here. In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself.Try immigrating illegally to Mexico, or applying for public assistance there, and see if Mexico's lack of "American ethnocentrism" makes any difference. We are far more generous to Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, than Mexico itself is to people wanting to live there.The ultimate fact is that Americans have decided that they don't want unlimited immigration, and have enacted laws setting limits (at fantastically high levels, incidentally.) If you think those limits ought not to exist, you ought to advocate that those laws be changed -- not just lambaste as "bigots" anyone who actually wants to enforce them. Excellent Post!!!! Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!
Amillia Posted January 13, 2005 Author Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 13 2005, 11:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 13 2005, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.What a country. Bigot. Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot. I resent your ignorance on this matter. You would have us be over run, giving up our own land to aliens without a word or be called a bigot. I guess it is a good thing you are a pion and not someone with real power.We are as good as slaves now for them because we are paying for all of their education and other benefits.We are also losing our children's futures to them. Just move over kids. Forget getting anything we had, it is already taken by the aliens. Now don't cry or moan or that will make you a bigot.Yeah right! Lack of facts, lack of knowledge of history. You don't seem to mind that your food is cheap and you don't seem to bother acknowledging that, while you think we are being "overun", our ancesters didn't seem to mind "overunning" the mexicans who are already here in California, and claiming California for its own.By the way, do you know the definition of bigot? It is the resentment of a whole class of people simply on the basis that they belong to a culture different than yours. Sound familiar.I don't hear you complaining about illegal Canadian immigration--it's not as evident, I wonder why? You are so full of it your eyes are brown!You totally are off by calling me a bigot according to your own difinition.
Amillia Posted January 13, 2005 Author Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.What a country. Bigot. Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot. You are so far down the path of unreasonable that I don't find it worth answering anymore.
Amillia Posted January 13, 2005 Author Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Winnie G@Jan 13 2005, 11:55 AM illegal Canadian immigration Are they called Snow Backs? I love you Winnie! You are so COOL! LOL
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Cal,A couple of points with your argument that there should be no restrictions enforced on immigration from Mexico:First, I disagree that mass Mexican immigration will proceed similarly with the mass Polish and Italian immigrations at the turn of the 20th century. The biggest difference I see is that there a far lesser likelihood that Mexicans in the Southwest will assimilate into American society to the same degree Poles and Italians did, for a number of reasons. First, neither Poland or Italy shares a border with the United States, which forced immigrants from those countries to make more or less a clean break with their old countries. Second, neither Poles or Italians came to the United States with a ready-made grievance against their adopted country; as you pointed out, Mexicans can (and do) claim that the Southwest was wrongfully taken from them. (Two responses to that: One, Mexico shouldn't have started the Mexican War -- and they did shoot first. Look it up. Second, most modern Mexican immigrants have no connection whatsoever with the few thousand Hispanic inhabitants of the Southwest, especially in California's case, where the descendants of the original Spanish families -- the Picos, the Carillos, the Sepulvedas, etc. -- largely intermarried with Anglos and did quite well for themselves.)Third, American society at the turn of the century and modern, multicultural, guilt-obsessed liberal America are vastly different. Today, a large body of opinion asks why in the world anyone would want to assimilate into such a rotten oppressor culture such as ours.Fourth (prepare to hit the roof), I don't think Mexican culture, as a whole, is an especially positive one. Whether its dysfunction was the result of the shattering of indigenous values and their incomplete replacement by Spanish ones, or the character of the people who've dominated Mexican society over the years, I simply don't think Mexican society has traditionally been as good as others at inculcating the values necessary for functioning well in the modern world. No matter how virtuous individual Mexicans may be (which can be very virtuous indeed, as I'm currently serving under two Mexican immigrants in my elders quorum), the society as a whole tolerates far too much corruption and dishonesty. Readers' Digest recently conducted an experiment in which it left several wallets full of money, with return information, in various cities around the world. The most honest city turned out to be Oslo, Norway, where everyone returned the wallets and their contents. The most dishonest was Mexico City, where even the nuns made off with the wallets. If you disagree that mexicans are not a nice people to be around, then you had better examin your sense of humanity.Okay. (examines self) Nope, no change: Individual Mexicans are great to be around, but you definitely don't want to be the only gringa in a school full of them.In closing ,, I find it interestingly coincidental that those that MOST want immigration laws enforced also express, whether obviously or between the lines, a prejudice and fear of other cultures, reflected in an almost preoccupation with mexican immigration.I suppose if America were experiencing massive immigration from the Arab world, as are France and the Netherlands, I'd be preoccupied with that immigration more than the Mexican variety, as increasingly radicalized Muslims are proving to be virtually unassimilable in those countries and are causing all kinds of problems. The United States accepts more immigrants than the rest of the world combined. That is a good thing -- up to a point. There is nothing so good that it is only good "up to a point." At some point, the marginal cost exceeds the marginal utility. I think we're past that point; you think we're not. Notice that I make my argument without trying to shut yours down by name-calling.
Guest curvette Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by john doe@Jan 12 2005, 10:48 PM Am I right? Are we all agreed on this? No. I wouldn't consider Mark Hacking a good, decent guy. He was an habitual, pathological liar.
Cal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by john doe+Jan 12 2005, 03:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (john doe @ Jan 12 2005, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 07:34 AM <!--QuoteBegin--john doe@Jan 11 2005, 11:03 PM I know, work with, and live around many Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal. The problem I see is that many of the illegals don't attempt to integrate themselves into being Americans, they seem to want the benefits of living here without paying for it. They seem to be the ones who refuse to learn the language unless they have to, drive without auto insurance, etc. Even the legal immigrants look upon the illegals with disdain and treat them like dirt, moreso than the gringos do. My answer: So what? What is your point? What benefits are you talking about? What are they not paying for THAT THEY CAN AFFORD? And SO WHAT that the legals treatt the illegals badly--is that some sort of justification for YOUR doing so?Maybe if they got paid a decent wage they could afford our auto insurance. Remember that the status of being illegal carries a connotation of some sort of moral failing on their part. In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself. Where do you get off claiming that I am treating the illegals badly? Get off your high horse, bucko. You have no idea how I treat them. As for your other complaint, the fact is, that it is a law to have a minimum insurance on any vehicle driven in my state on public roads. Period. If the illegals want to be a viable part of America, they need to start by not breaking the laws here. If they cannot afford to drive legally on our roads, then they need to find another mode of transportation that they can use legally. The moral failing they show is that they refuse to obey the laws of the land they chose to come to. Besides that, by and large, they don't pay income taxes since they are undocumented workers. That leaves the legal residents with the burden of paying for the illegal ones. They place a burden on our public services without making any meaningful contribution to the funding of those services. That is a problem. Where do you get off claiming that I am treating the illegals badly? Where did I say YOU treat illegals badly? You are the one that claimed that legal immigrants treat illegals badly--I simply said that is no reason for anyone else to. I didn't say that you, personally, did, Bucko!
Cal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Winnie G@Jan 13 2005, 10:55 AM illegal Canadian immigration Are they called Snow Backs? My point exactly--you pay no attention to it.
Cal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 13 2005, 11:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 13 2005, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 13 2005, 11:00 AM Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.What a country. Bigot. Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot. I resent your ignorance on this matter. You would have us be over run, giving up our own land to aliens without a word or be called a bigot. I guess it is a good thing you are a pion and not someone with real power.We are as good as slaves now for them because we are paying for all of their education and other benefits.We are also losing our children's futures to them. Just move over kids. Forget getting anything we had, it is already taken by the aliens. Now don't cry or moan or that will make you a bigot.Yeah right! Lack of facts, lack of knowledge of history. You don't seem to mind that your food is cheap and you don't seem to bother acknowledging that, while you think we are being "overun", our ancesters didn't seem to mind "overunning" the mexicans who are already here in California, and claiming California for its own.By the way, do you know the definition of bigot? It is the resentment of a whole class of people simply on the basis that they belong to a culture different than yours. Sound familiar.I don't hear you complaining about illegal Canadian immigration--it's not as evident, I wonder why? You are so full of it your eyes are brown!You totally are off by calling me a bigot according to your own difinition. Go you cold, huh? Can't think of a single rational reply.
Cal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 13 2005, 11:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 13 2005, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.What a country. Bigot. Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot. You are so far down the path of unreasonable that I don't find it worth answering anymore. So you don't deny disliking Mexicans?
Cal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 13 2005, 11:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 13 2005, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Jan 13 2005, 11:55 AM illegal Canadian immigration Are they called Snow Backs? I love you Winnie! You are so COOL! LOL Another racist remark. Keep it up, you may win the KKK Annual Bigot of the Year Award.
Jenda Posted January 13, 2005 Report Posted January 13, 2005 I am locking this thread since nobody can keep to the topic and everyone has resorted to attacking each other personally.
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