Vegans And Cannibals

[Guest TheProudDuck]

So three of us starving underpaid junior associates took the new guy out for lunch today. Being (as noted supra) starving and underpaid, we took him to Daphne's, a fast-food Greek joint rather than Scott's Grill, which would have required us to take out second mortgages or (in my non-homeowning case) sell my daughter into slavery.

Anyway, we all noted that the new guy ("TNG") ordered the veggie pita plate. It came out that he's not only a vegetarian, but a vegan -- as in not only no meat, but no milk or eggs, or anything (including cookies ) with those things as ingredients. (No word on whether he's a seventh-level vegan -- the kind that refuses to eat anything that casts a shadow.)

At some point, I made a bad joke about how the law library is so far down the hall from my office that I've resorted to cannibalism, Donner Party-style, a couple of times during my forced marches down to retrieve a book. Then, semi-serious, I asked TNG whether he thought cannibalism was worse, in a vegan's perspective, than eating animal meat, or better.

My thinking was that it could hypothetically go either way: If veganism is based on a life-revering ethic characterized by a refusal to take life for food, then the more advanced the life form (with humans being the most advanced), then eating one's old friend with fava beans and a nice Chianti would, in fact, be worse than eating a filet mignon. On the other hand, if veganism is based on a kind of ultra-egalitarian ethic, which considers it "speciesist" to consider a human being more significant than, say, a bug, then it doesn't matter whose leg the ham you're eating came from; it's all wrong.

TNG surprised me by answering, in all seriousness, that both of these views were wrong. He said that cannibalism would actually be more consistent with a vegan ethic than eating animal meat, assuming that the eatee consented to be eaten. An animal, he reasoned, is not a rational creature; hence, it can't give consent to be eaten. But a human being can; therefore, there would be nothing for a vegan to object to. TNG hastened to add that he, himself, had no plans to eat anyone.

At this point I was regretting having turned the conversation in this direction, not to mention that I had totally lost my appetite and couldn't finish my gyros pita. Interesting, though, that something so beyond-the-pale weird could be made to sound so rational.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 6 2005, 12:39 AM

So three of us starving underpaid junior associates took the new guy out for lunch today.  Being (as noted supra) starving and underpaid, we took him to Daphne's, a fast-food Greek joint rather than Scott's Grill, which would have required us to take out second mortgages or (in my non-homeowning case) sell my daughter into slavery. 

Anyway, we all noted that the new guy ("TNG") ordered the veggie pita plate.  It came out that he's not only a vegetarian, but a vegan -- as in not only no meat, but no milk or eggs, or anything (including cookies ) with those things as ingredients.  (No word on whether he's a seventh-level vegan -- the kind that refuses to eat anything that casts a shadow.)

At some point, I made a bad joke about how the law library is so far down the hall from my office that I've resorted to cannibalism, Donner Party-style, a couple of times during my forced marches down to retrieve a book.  Then, semi-serious, I asked TNG whether he thought cannibalism was worse, in a vegan's perspective, than eating animal meat, or better.

My thinking was that it could hypothetically go either way:  If veganism is based on a life-revering ethic characterized by a refusal to take life for food, then the more advanced the life form (with humans being the most advanced), then eating one's old friend with fava beans and a nice Chianti would, in fact, be worse than eating a filet mignon.  On the other hand, if veganism is based on a kind of ultra-egalitarian ethic, which considers it "speciesist" to consider a human being more significant than, say, a bug, then it doesn't matter whose leg the ham you're eating came from; it's all wrong.

TNG surprised me by answering, in all seriousness, that both of these views were wrong.  He said that cannibalism would actually be more consistent with a vegan ethic than eating animal meat, assuming that the eatee consented to be eaten.  An animal, he reasoned, is not a rational creature; hence, it can't give consent to be eaten.  But a human being can; therefore, there would be nothing for a vegan to object to.  TNG hastened to add that he, himself, had no plans to eat anyone. 

At this point I was regretting having turned the conversation in this direction, not to mention that I had totally lost my appetite and couldn't finish my gyros pita.  Interesting, though, that something so beyond-the-pale weird could be made to sound so rational.

It's all about what concessions one is will to make. Can a potato consent to be eaten? How about an apple? If your friend insists on "consent" as the governing principle of cuisine, cannabalism remains the only choice--the only consent I ever gave to being eaten was one time when I bit a hangnail, but I didn't swallow, so I guess that doesn't count.

YOu might also ask your friend if there is any difference between the amino acids that end up in your blood stream from say eating beans, and the amino acids that you end up with from eating meats? The only fundamental difference is that animals have fats that are chemically fundamentally different from vegetable fats (the vegetable ones being better for you). The carbs are identical, and the proteins all end up in the same form--amino acids. So what remains as the significant difference. Well, meats do give you a lot more of the harmful fats--that's about it---and you could, theoretically, get too much protein.

[Guest curvette]

Good points Cal (funny too!). Totally off topic, but I wonder if strict vegans could actually cause an evolutionary change in humans. From what I've learned, our distant ancestors caused our brains to grow larger, and our guts to shrink when they became meat eaters. If a group of people isolated themselves for thousands of years and ate no animal products, I wonder if their brains would shrink and their bellies become more apelike.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette@Apr 6 2005, 12:43 PM

Good points Cal (funny too!).  Totally off topic, but I wonder if strict vegans could actually cause an evolutionary change in humans.  From what I've learned, our distant ancestors caused our brains to grow larger, and our guts to shrink when they became meat eaters.  If a group of people isolated themselves for thousands of years and ate no animal products, I wonder if their brains would shrink and their bellies become more apelike.

Hi, Curvo, long time......

I read recently that anthropolgists think that an exposure to a high protein diet, by humans migrating to coastal environments (eating shell fish, fish, and other high protein foods) fueled the development of the human brain, and literally helped make us smarter.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Hm ... so maybe I can chalk my brilliance (pause for chorus of groans) up to the fact that I love seared scallops. Not sure whether Swedish Fish have the same brain-enhancing stuff as the real kind, but the Swedes I've met seem smart enough. (Also drunk and depressed, but I guess it's all part of the package; "only we who guard the mystery shall be unhappy.")

Curvette,

If a group of people isolated themselves for thousands of years and ate no animal products, I wonder if their brains would shrink and their bellies become more apelike.

I was wondering why TNG kept grooming for lice in the middle of lunch.

I was tempted to, but did not, tell him that I would consider going vegetarian on the day dolphins do.

[Guest curvette]

I just don't see how they do it. I tried the vegetarian thing for a few weeks once, but my carnivorous instincts took over. Now I'm a happy omnivore!

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 6 2005, 12:54 PM

Hm ... so maybe I can chalk my brilliance (pause for chorus of groans) up to the fact that I love seared scallops.  Not sure whether Swedish Fish have the same brain-enhancing stuff as the real kind, but the Swedes I've met seem smart enough.  (Also drunk and depressed, but I guess it's all part of the package; "only we who guard the mystery shall be unhappy.")

Curvette,

If a group of people isolated themselves for thousands of years and ate no animal products, I wonder if their brains would shrink and their bellies become more apelike.

I was wondering why TNG kept grooming for lice in the middle of lunch.

I was tempted to, but did not, tell him that I would consider going vegetarian on the day dolphins do.

PD,

Way off topic but I was just curious.....are there any other Mormons in your firm and

do you find any difference between Mormon lawyers and non-mormon as to ethical practices? Just curious. Except in Trust Administration (where I hear from beneficiary's counsel at times) and an occasional Landlord Tenant case, I don't deal with other lawyers all that often, especially since I practice solo.

Oh, and has your Estate Planning department seen more business since Shiavo? Again just curious. The day after her death, I got three calls for Estate Planning.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal,

All the estate planning lawyers work out of my firm's LA office. It's a small practice group -- 4 out of a hundred lawyers or so. I don't really know if their practice has picked up much since Schiavo or not.

As for whether I've seen any difference as regards ethics between Mormon lawyers and others, I can't really say I have. I have worked with one bona fide $#%#, who was not Mormon. I've had unpleasant personal interactions with Mormon lawyers, too, but they tend to be nicer personally, at least on the surface. Oh, and they use fewer words starting with "f."

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 6 2005, 04:35 PM

Cal,

All the estate planning lawyers work out of my firm's LA office. It's a small practice group -- 4 out of a hundred lawyers or so. I don't really know if their practice has picked up much since Schiavo or not.

As for whether I've seen any difference as regards ethics between Mormon lawyers and others, I can't really say I have. I have worked with one bona fide $#%#, who was not Mormon. I've had unpleasant personal interactions with Mormon lawyers, too, but they tend to be nicer personally, at least on the surface. Oh, and they use fewer words starting with "f."

Interesting! There aren't many Mormon lawyers in this area; the one I know the best is a Tax and Estate Planning lawyer with 30+ years experience and has been very generous in his mentoring. I have been pleasantly surprised at how helpful other lawyers are willing to be with relative rookies---especially in the first few years.

Did you have the same experience as to the helpfulness of other lawyers?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Cal+Apr 6 2005, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 6 2005, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 6 2005, 04:35 PM

Cal,

All the estate planning lawyers work out of my firm's LA office.  It's a small practice group -- 4 out of a hundred lawyers or so.  I don't really know if their practice has picked up much since Schiavo or not.

As for whether I've seen any difference as regards ethics between Mormon lawyers and others, I can't really say I have.  I have worked with one bona fide $#%#, who was not Mormon.  I've had unpleasant personal interactions with Mormon lawyers, too, but they tend to be nicer personally, at least on the surface.  Oh, and they use fewer words starting with "f."

Interesting! There aren't many Mormon lawyers in this area; the one I know the best is a Tax and Estate Planning lawyer with 30+ years experience and has been very generous in his mentoring. I have been pleasantly surprised at how helpful other lawyers are willing to be with relative rookies---especially in the first few years.

Did you have the same experience as to the helpfulness of other lawyers?

I've been employed with established firms since I passed the bar, so I don't have much experience with mentoring from lawyers I'm not directly associated with. As far as the mentoring I've gotten from within the firms I've worked at, it's been a mixed bag. Some have been extremely helpful, but the last guy I worked with was a pure nightmare who was the cause for me coming as close as I probably ever will to contemplating homicide. (My wife loves "FBI Files"-style true crime shows, so I think I probably could get away with it. )

[pushka]

Here's a link to my web forum on which we had a short debate about vegan diets...if I find any more references on the forum which are applicable I will post those too:

http://oogleboogle.proboards23.com/index.c...&num=1102188578

http://oogleboogle.proboards23.com/index.c...&num=1092914919