Bush's Gitmo Vindication

[Islander]

Islander: I never denied that you could turn me in to a monster. I have argued against torture of all kinds, just like I have advocated that the death penalty should be disallowed. In that case, when someone said 'So you say now, but if you had kids and one of them were murdered, you'd change your tune.'

My response? 'No, because I wouldn't want to be executed when I shot the guy on the front steps of the court.'

I don't claim to be perfect, nor have I ever said that it's not understandable why bad things happen in war time.

But I will never ever state that we can condone these things or make them legal just because people are imperfect. God has set a standard and that is the standard I will always aspire to. Whenever I disagree with that, I'm in the wrong. Whenever you disagree with that standard, you are in the wrong.

It's really that simple.

Oh, and torture isn't just about physical pain. If someone tossed a person with a crippling fear of enclosed spaces in a box, that would be torture. If I were buried alive and oxygen pumped in, that would be torture. If someone slapped me for three days straight until I started hallucinating and descended to my own personal Hell, that would be torture.

Torture can and will be psychological, emotional or physical. Again, if Jesus didn't condone it, neither can I. In any argument between you and God, Islander, God wins. It's really that simple.

Do you have any suggestions about how to extract information from the enemy? Since the prisons in the US look better than any boarding school in the developing world, what do you suggest we do with those captured? All I am saying is that when faced with a pickle and the prospects of starvation you can philosophy, debate and theorize all you want. It comes down to whether you eat it or not.

The current situation evidenced that Obama is a demagogue. The reality on the ground is quite far from the political stage. Gtmo will not close within a year, will not try those terrorist in Federal Court and we will not be gone from Afghanistan and Irak in 16 months as he promised. It evidences a number of things: he is complete ignorant of foreign policy, military strategy, the realities of war and the biter facts about the world we live in. Of course, he never had a ear job to speak of, he did not serve his country and he does not appreciate the true foundation of this nation. It is like eating ice cream and dening the existence of cows.

At the end, if you give up space, if you step back and give your enemy room so you can try and negotiate, all you do is lose momentum and terrain. This is a war with no end and the most committed wins. You can not negotiate with one that wants you dead. You either fight or bow down and die.

[FunkyTown]

You can not negotiate with one that wants you dead. You either fight or bow down and die.

I'm not going to address the previous part of this because, frankly, it's based upon the idea that the only way to gather intelligence is to torture those who know.

Instead, I want to ask: Who wants you dead and why? I don't want to hear 'The Terrorists' and 'Because they hate your freedoms'.

In many ways, Holland is far more liberal and 'Free' than the US, yet they haven't been attacked. And simply saying 'The Terrorists' is difficult - The Oklahoma City bombing, the Unibomber - Most terrorist acts that have occurred on US soil have occurred at the hands of other Americans. That's why I'm asking: "Who are these monstrous 'They' that want only to kill every man, woman and child in the US?"

[Islander]

I'm not going to address the previous part of this because, frankly, it's based upon the idea that the only way to gather intelligence is to torture those who know.

Instead, I want to ask: Who wants you dead and why? I don't want to hear 'The Terrorists' and 'Because they hate your freedoms'.

In many ways, Holland is far more liberal and 'Free' than the US, yet they haven't been attacked. And simply saying 'The Terrorists' is difficult - The Oklahoma City bombing, the Unibomber - Most terrorist acts that have occurred on US soil have occurred at the hands of other Americans. That's why I'm asking: "Who are these monstrous 'They' that want only to kill every man, woman and child in the US?"

I think this issue has been distorted and blown out of proportion by the media and specially those that know nothing about the realities and the rigors of war. If you slap somebody is torture, if you keep him awake is torture, if you play loud music is torture...if you call him names is torture. Go figure. In the other hand, I never said that it was the ONLY way to extract information. You did not suggest any other way, by the way.

On 9/11 I was driving thru the desert on my way to San Diego. I had a flight to Seattle that morning. In a manner of minutes 3000 Americans were dead by the hands of foreign nationals in our own soil without provocation or stated reason. That does not make feel anything? You obviously have not seen the beheadings on the web of journalists and others that had nothing to do with the war.

I think I will agree to split the difference here since we are at opposite sides of the ideological spectrum.

[FunkyTown]

On 9/11 I was driving thru the desert on my way to San Diego. I had a flight to Seattle that morning. In a manner of minutes 3000 Americans were dead by the hands of foreign nationals in our own soil without provocation or stated reason. That does not make feel anything? You obviously have not seen the beheadings on the web of journalists and others that had nothing to do with the war.

Of course it does. It made me angry, but don't you realize that whatever laws put in place to affect 'terrorists' will also affect US citizens? Most US terrorists are homegrown:

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people and was a libertarian. Do we attack all libertarian Survivalists or just the states that have them in them?

That, however, wasn't really my original point. Forget politics. In simple moral terms: If you can't imagine Jesus saying 'Sure. In this case, go ahead and slap those people silly.', it's simply not morally correct.

It's not gray. He was the perfect person. We should emulate him. If he wouldn't do it, then it's not right.