Amillia, A Few Questions.

[Amillia]

The Declaration of Utrecht:

At this point we depart from the text of the 1941 articles by our Benedictine brother to point out an extremely important development in the Old Catholic Church and the Independent Catholic Movement which sprang from it.

The Old Catholic bishops met in Council in the see of Utrecht and came up with a revolutionary statement of faith. Unlike Luther’s theses, it did not reject doctrines of the first millennium, but sought to return to them, rejecting only Rome’s innovations since the Great Schism.

The language of the Declaration of Utrecht is rather strident, reflecting the tendency of the day (everyone throwing anathemas at each other). The United Catholic Church does not look on these statements as dogma. But they are instructive in the context of the formation of the Old Catholic Church. They reflect a consensus of very many devout Catholic bishops who wished to preserve the Catholic faith from the innovations of an influential minority in the Church.

The text follows:

The Declaration of Utrecht

Declaration of the Bishops of the Old Catholic Church,

Utrecht, Sep 24, 1889

1. We adhere faithfully to the Rule of Faith laid down by St. Vincent of Lerins in these terms: "Id teneamus, ubique quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est; hoc est etenim vere proprieque catholicum." For this reason we persevere in professing the faith of the primitive Church, as formulated in the ecumenical symbols and specified precisely by the unanimously accepted decisions of the Ecumenical Councils held in the undivided Church of the first thousand years.

2. We therefore reject the decrees of the so-called Council of the Vatican, which were promulgated on July 18th, 1870 concerning the infallibility and the universal Episcopate of the Bishop of Rome, decrees which contradict the faith of the ancient canonical constitution by attributing to the Pope the plenitude of ecclesiastical powers over all Dioceses and over all the faithful. By denial of his primatial jurisdiction, we do not wish to deny the historic primacy which several Ecumenical Councils and the Fathers of the ancient Church have attributed to the Bishop of Rome by recognizing him as the Primus inter pares.

3. We also reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception promulgated by Pius IX in 1854 in defiance of the Holy Scriptures and in contradiction to the tradition of the first centuries.

4. As for other Encyclicals published by the Bishops of Rome in recent times; for example, the Bulls Unigenitus and Auctorem fidei, and the Syllabus of 1864, we reject them on all such points as are in contradiction of the doctrine of the primitive Church, and we do not recognize them as binding on the conscience of the faithful. We also renew the ancient protest of the Catholic Church of Holland against the errors of the Roman Curia, and against its attacks upon the rights of national Churches.

5. We refuse to accept the decrees of the Council of Trent in matters of discipline, and as for the dogmatic decisions of that Council, accept them only so far as they are in harmony with the teaching of the primitive Church.

6. Considering that the Holy Eucharist has always been the true central point of Catholic worship, we consider it our duty to declare that we maintain with perfect fidelity the ancient Catholic doctrine concerning the Sacrament of the Altar, by believing that we receive the Body and Blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ under the species of bread and wine. The Eucharistic celebration in the church is neither a continual repetition nor a renewal of the expiatory sacrifice which Jesus offered once for all upon the Cross, and it is the act by which we represent upon earth and appropriate to ourselves the one offering which Jesus Christ makes in Heaven, according to the Epistle to the Hebrews ix:11,12 for the salvation of redeemed humanity, by appearing for us in the presence of God (Heb ix:24). The character of the Holy Eucharist being thus understood, it is, at the same time, a sacrificial feast, by means of which the faithful, in receiving the Body and Blood of our Saviour, enter into communion with one another (1 Cor x:17).

7. We hope that Catholic theologians, in maintaining the faith of the undivided Church, will succeed in establishing an agreement upon all such questions as caused controversy ever since the Churches became divided. We exhort the priests under our jurisdiction to teach, both by preaching and by instruction of the young, especially the essential Christian truths professed by all Christian confessions, to avoid, in discussing controversial doctrines, any violation of truth or charity, and in word and deed to set an example to the members of our churches in accordance with the spirit of Jesus Christ our Savior.

8. By maintaining and professing faithfully the doctrine of Jesus Christ, by refusing to admit those errors which by the fault of men have crept into the Catholic Church, by laying aside the abuses in ecclesiastical matters, together with the worldly tendencies of hierarchy, we believe that we shall be able to combat efficaciously the great evils of our day, which are unbelief and indifference in matters of religion.

[Amillia]

8. By maintaining and professing faithfully the doctrine of Jesus Christ, by refusing to admit those errors which by the fault of men have crept into the Catholic Church, by laying aside the abuses in ecclesiastical matters, together with the worldly tendencies of hierarchy, we believe that we shall be able to combat efficaciously the great evils of our day, which are unbelief and indifference in matters of religion.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Amillia@May 3 2005, 04:06 PM

8. By maintaining and professing faithfully the doctrine of Jesus Christ, by refusing to admit those errors which by the fault of men have crept into the Catholic Church, by laying aside the abuses in ecclesiastical matters, together with the worldly tendencies of hierarchy, we believe that we shall be able to combat efficaciously the great evils of our day, which are unbelief and indifference in matters of religion.

It appears that your church had it's own problems of men and faults ~

[Amillia]

We now return to the text taken from the 1941 articles written by the Old Catholic brother from New York State.

The English Movement:

"In England a movement began in 1908 which resulted in the formation of the Old Catholic Church in England. In that year the distinguished English priest, Dr. Arnold Harris Mathew, de jure Earl of Llandoff, who had left the Roman Church, was consecrated by the Archbishop of Utrecht assisted by all the continental Old Catholic Bishops, at the Cathedral Church of Saint Gertrude, Utrecht, on April 28th, and placed in charge of the English mission. On Saint Paul's Day, 1911, he was elected Archbishop and Metropolitan of Great Britain.

"The Archbishop and his little flock in England soon found themselves in double danger. Added to the natural differences with their former brethren in the Roman Church was a campaign of persecution directed by certain elements among the Anglicans of the state Church of England, described by Dr. Willibroad Beyschleg, Professor of the University of Holland, and a noted Old Catholic historian, as ‘those who emphatically desire to be 'catholic' but are at the same time wholly out of sympathy with Old Catholics.’ They were a small group of ritualistic churchmen of the established English Church ‘on the way to Rome,’ while the Old Catholics were ‘on the way from Rome.’

"Certain unprincipled elements of this ‘Anglo-Catholic’ group exerted pressure on the Dutch Church to disavow the English Old Catholics, but without result. At one time they intended to besmirch the English Archbishop's character by elaborating on a statement made by a Roman Catholic editor that Bishop Mathew's credentials to the Dutch Church contained false statements, but the Bishops of Holland, after a thorough investigation themselves vindicated Bishop Mathew. The Roman priest himself recalled the original statement, saying that since he made it he had satisfied himself by a personal investigation that it was groundless.

"The clique of English churchmen continued to use this disreputable stratagem against the Old Catholics in the English speaking world even after Bishop Mathew's death. Bishop Mathew, however, maintained a high standard of Christian tolerance and continued his work, unmoved by the persistent noisiness of his detractors who nonetheless caused him much pain.

"As evidence of their confidence in Archbishop Mathew, the Dutch Bishops had him participate in every consecration of Utrecht establishing a new Episcopate on the Continent of Europe until his death in 1919. Bishop Mathew assisted at the Consecration of Bishop Jan Michael Kowalski and two assistant Bishops for the Old Catholic Church in Poland, which from that period on was to have close historical and ecclesiastical relations with English-speaking Old Catholics.

"A noted author and historian, Bishop Mathew had an excellent knowledge of the Orthodox Church, and established the most cordial relations between the English Old Catholics and the Patriarchal See of Antioch through his Eminence the Most Reverend Archbishop Gearrasimos Messara of Beruit, Syria, who on August 5th, 1911, received the Old Catholics under Bishop Mathew into union and full communion with the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. Thus a genuine and practical rapprochement between the Catholics of the East and of the West was for the first time established after a breach which had lasted almost 10 centuries.

"What distinguished the scholarly Archbishop Mathew and the Episcopate he established in Scotland and America from that of the continental Old Catholics was his insistence on the inviolable Episcopal authority of each national body of Old Catholics. This had been in the minds of the original Old Catholic congresses, but the German Episcopate, because of its preponderance of numbers and wealth, attempted to create a small hierarchical system patterned on the Roman administration with the Archbishop of Utrecht in the position of ranking prelate or ‘little pope.’ The English Old Catholics, seeing in this the possibilities of the former mistake of the Western Church with a Germanic, instead of an Italian, spiritual protectorate over the whole Christian world, restated the original Old Catholic principles of autonomy and have received the support of their Orthodox friends in this respect.

"Bishop Mathew's personal contribution to the Old Catholic Movement can be summed up as a broadening of the Catholic mind to an acceptance of the necessity of the unifying of Christ's Church on the basis of the original tenets of the Christian Faith as it was once believed by all Christians everywhere, and the recognition that this can only be accomplished by complete cooperation with Christians of the Eastern Churches, whose proximity in language, in tradition, and in mind with the early Christians, makes them the ideal vehicle.

"After Bishop Mathew's death, the small body of Old Catholics in England remained without legitimate Episcopal supervision of their own, and until a short while ago the Church remained in the protection of the Episcopate of the Old Catholic Church in Poland. Now, cut off from their Mother-house by the European War, the English Old Catholics have placed themselves under the jurisdiction of an American Old Catholic Archbishop.

[Amillia]

The Mariavite Order:

"By far, one of the most important early 19th century events in the development of the Old Catholic Movement has been the Mariavite Order in Poland. The nucleus of this movement was a community of nuns, founded in 1893 and organized under the Rule of Saint Francis for the promotion of asceticism and the moral purification of the Polish Church. These nuns were teachers in the parochial schools of Poland and greatly influenced the lives of the clergy and laity in whatever part of the nation they ministered. An order of priests, observing the Franciscan rule, was added to them and in 1909 there were 68 priests and a large number of students ready for ordination.

"These two communities were solemnly bound by an understanding that their work was to begin with a moral regeneration amongst their own kind within the Church -- the clergy and religious orders. From the first, they were actively opposed by the Polish Jesuits and at last an order came from Rome that they were to be dissolved. When they refused to break up their community life, they were formally condemned in April 1906, and in December 1906, all their members and adherents cut off from the rites of the Roman Church.

"A period of bitter persecution set in, but somehow they managed to keep together and increase their numbers. The Polish peasants were stirred up against the ‘Mariaviten’ and their woman leader, ‘The Little Mother,’ to such a degree that armed attacks were made against the followers when they gathered together in religious meetings. The Roman authorities at one time circulated a report that the Sacrament consecrated by the Mariavite priests became not the Body of Christ, but an Incarnation of the Devil, and in consequence terrible sacrileges were committed against Mariavites and several of their churches were burned to the ground.

"With the growth of its numbers and in increasing necessity of Episcopal supervision for its parishes, the Order at last decided to ask the Old Catholics to consecrate a bishop for them. Accordingly, the bishop-elect Brother Jan Michael Kowalski and two of his brethren were sent to the international Old Catholic Congress in Vienna in 1909. Through the great Russian theologian, General Alexander Kireef, they were introduced to the delegates of the Congress. There, on the last morning of the meeting, Brother Kowalski stated the ground of his appeal and asked the prayers and sympathy of the assemblage. The Mariavite priests with their bare sandal feet and gray habits formed a striking and arresting impression in the midst of the other delegates and their genuine and simple character won them many new friends. After careful consultation, the Old Catholic Bishops accepted their application and the first bishop of the Church in Poland, Brother-Bishop Jan Michael Kowalski, was consecrated at Utrecht, Holland, early in October of that year.

"For the next several years, the Old Catholic Church in Poland steadily increased. In February and March of 1909 the Minister of the Interior of the Polish government gave the Mariavite order official state recognition. Within the parishes, Churches, parsonages, schools, and other institutions were rapidly built. In the parish of Lodz in 1910, where there were already 40,000 Mariavites, four handsome Churches were built entirely through the efforts, personal and manual, of the clergy and laity.

"Driven by the boycott of their Roman Catholic neighbors to depend more and more upon their own efforts, the members of the Mariavite movement soon developed a civil as well as a religious form of community amongst themselves. They worked and traded with each other, supporting one another, creating their own industries and soon, by cooperation, they rendered themselves entirely independent. Cooperation stores in villages and lodging houses in towns were organized. Hospitals staffed by their own doctors and nurses, orphanages, schools, homes for the aged, soup kitchens, milk dispensaries, fire departments, cultural activities, farms of magnificent acreage, factories -- in fact all the necessary prerequisites of modern living -- were developed and organized within their own groups and used to serve their neighbors.

"Though this social and industrial reorganization greatly improved the position of the Old Catholics in Poland, it had to be accompanied by great personal sacrifices. In one town, Leszno, where cooperative factories on a large scale -- for bookbinding, shoemaking, cabinet making, and similar activities -- had been organized, several families handed over all their property to the community and put their own services unreservedly at its disposal.

"Underlying the power and vitality of this movement which led to wholly new social groupings and industrial experiments was the ever present guidance of a strong and inspired leader -- a woman, Mary Francis Felicia, devotedly acknowledged by all as ‘Mateszka.’ Simple and unassuming in manner, she nonetheless provoked a religio-social movement worth the consideration of the world's serious minds. She proved to be, in the fullest sense, the ‘little mother’ of her people.

"The Mariavite Movement was, up to that time, significantly different from any similar religious manifestation. It is in effect the working out of a practical application to life of the social significance of the Gospel. The foundress of the movement, the Little Mother, Mary Francis Felicia, believed and taught that the Kingdom of God on Earth is to be understood as a divinely human society -- a society in which justice, brotherhood, equality, and the general welfare of all its members prevailed. Basically, the Little Mother established her theory on the formula that for God's Kingdom to come on earth, His will must also be done.

"The Mariavites believe that the curing of all social ills rests in properly relating the human element to the spiritual regeneration of family, nation, and society. But since ethical theories and social realignments in themselves are not enough, they maintain that the ‘direct action of God’ working on the human spirit is essential. ‘The direct action of God,’ they say, ‘is fulfilled in the partaking of Holy Communion, which, in the opinion of the Mariavites, must be the 'daily bread' of men and women.’ In this sense the entire religious and social life of the Mariavites centers upon the Holy Eucharist, at which the faithful communicate as a means of daily regenerating the human spirit and as the first step toward the regeneration of society and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth.

"Christianity, according to the Mariavites, is to be lived. Worship enters into every field of human activity. Its end and sole purpose cannot be found in religious gatherings held at stated periods alone. The act of worship, the liturgy, is an active and motivating experience in the lives of all who take part in it. During World War II more than 350,000 followers in Poland demonstrated the possibility of this life of faith and work even under the trying exigencies of world conflict.

"Oddly enough, women play the important part in this religious movement. It was first founded by a woman, who also directed its social possibilities. The administration of major communities of the movement in many parts of the country was in the hands of women. The work of the sisters had been of such beneficial influence that they have been asked by the populace of many sections to administer parochial activities. Of the total number of about 1571 religious workers, including clergy, brothers of the Order and the sisterhood, more than one thousand of them are women actually engaged in the administration of the movement. The General Chapter, which meets to elect new officers and to decide the general administrative policy of the movement, has an equal representation of women with votes. The Mother General of the Sisters must take part in the election of a new Archbishop, as well as in all proceedings of the General Chapter.

"The religious workers of the Movement were grouped into three categories. First there were the priests and members of the brotherhood who lived under the Rule of Saint Francis. The community of nuns, about 600 in number, compose another group, to which were added about 400 deaconnesses under the supervision of the Mother General. Under the third grouping, some 500 persons following a modified religious rule gave their time and energies to the movement. Of this last number, a great many consist of married couples voluntarily devoting their lives to buttress the work of the clergy and the sisterhood. Joy is a paramount requisite of a Christian life and the Mariavites everywhere radiate a warm and becoming mirth.

"The zeal of the Movement touched the peasant populations of central Europe and awakened a living religious movement amongst them. A Pole writing of the effect this movement has on the people says, ‘From the surrounding neighborhood of their habitations there would be a flood of thirsty souls eager for God and His mercy.’ People when they met the Mariavites turned to God with such a subsequent change in their mode of life that even the Jews were wont to say, ‘What kind of new Christians are these.’

"The Old Catholic Church under the administration of the Mariavite Order in Poland was in every way a distinct and important demonstration of the possibility of a 20th century Christian social order. From Poland their influence spread to other parts of the world, where in some places it became well established. Mariavite missions were founded in Lithuania, France, England, South America, and North America.

"Mariavites supported themselves with the labor of their own hands and offered their ministrations freely to all without salaries. Mission funds are not a necessary consideration of the movement. The Church, they would say, is here to give every assistance to people both for their spiritual and material well-being; it does not have to take from them. Perhaps it might yet be said of the Mariavites everywhere in the world, as it was then said of them in Poland, ‘Wherever there is a Mariavite there is neither hunger nor sorrow.’

[Jason]

Amillia,

I don't even know where to begin. None of the churches you've posted are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The Old Catholic churches derive their authority from the Treaty of Utrecht. This treaty was made with a Roman Catholic Pope. Their authority (and teachings) are apostate in that they accept homosexuals and ordain women. They also accept the filioque heresy.

The Marionite churches are Uniates, which means that they were once Orthodox Churches who chose to submit to the Roman Catholic Pope and all the heresies that go along with them.

All of the other churches are again Western Churches who are in schism or out of communion with the Roman Catholic Papacy. None of them have anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy.

You've cut and pasted from sites that are inaccuarate. The Old Catholics are in union with the Monophysite churches (Coptics) who rejected the fourth ecumenical council. In other words, they're apostates.

The Eastern Orthodox are 250 million believers who have rejected the heresies of the West. Why don't you try looking into Eastern Orthodoxy, rather than all the schismatic western churches, eh?

http://www.antiochian.org/

http://www.goarch.org/

http://www.ec-patr.gr/

[Amillia]

Try the new posted link

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 04:31 PM

Amillia,

I don't even know where to begin. None of the churches you've posted are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The Old Catholic churches derive their authority from the Treaty of Utrecht. This treaty was made with a Roman Catholic Pope. Their authority (and teachings) are apostate in that they accept homosexuals and ordain women. They also accept the filioque heresy.

The Marionite churches are Uniates, which means that they were once Orthodox Churches who chose to submit to the Roman Catholic Pope and all the heresies that go along with them.

All of the other churches are again Western Churches who are in schism or out of communion with the Roman Catholic Papacy. None of them have anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy.

You've cut and pasted from sites that are inaccuarate. The Old Catholics are in union with the Monophysite churches (Coptics) who rejected the fourth ecumenical council. In other words, they're apostates.

The Eastern Orthodox are 250 million believers who have rejected the heresies of the West. Why don't you try looking into Eastern Orthodoxy, rather than all the schismatic western churches, eh?

http://www.antiochian.org/

http://www.goarch.org/

http://www.ec-patr.gr/

So you believe in THE NICENE - CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED

Wasn't this created some 1000 or so years after Christ?

[Amillia]

Gift of donation? Do you pay tithing? You church is the 2nd largest? Which one is the Largest? And how many brake offs or different churches are there holding the title Orthadox Catholic church?

[Amillia]

Wow look at those GRAND titles!

Letter of President of the USA His Excellency Mr George Bush to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

[Greek]

Letter of His Beatitude, the Patriarch of Romania Theoctist, to His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholoemew(14.01.2005).

Letter to His Excellency Victor Yuschenko, President of Ukraine(22/01/2005).

[Greek]

Letter of His Excellency Viktor Yuschenko, President of Ukraine, to His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew(21/01/2005).

[Greek]

Letter from the World Council of Churches and the Conference of European Churches to His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.

Letter of His Royal Highness Prince El Hassan bin Talal of Jordan to His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.

[Jason]

So you believe in THE NICENE - CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED

Of course.

Wasn't this created some 1000 or so years after Christ?

Nope. The Creed came about in 381 AD.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 04:47 PM

So you believe in THE NICENE - CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED

Of course.

Wasn't this created some 1000 or so years after Christ?

Nope. The Creed came about in 381 AD.

Under Constantinopol?

[Jason]

Gift of donation? Do you pay tithing?

Tithing is important, but will not keep you from communing (the Eucharist).

You church is the 2nd largest? Which one is the Largest?

Eastern Orthodox are around 250 Million members.

Roman Catholics are around 1.1 Billion.

And how many brake offs or different churches are there holding the title Orthadox Catholic church?

It's not so much the name (how many churches have the title "Church of Jesus Christ" in them? Lots.) It's not even the claim of apostolic authority (Roman Catholics (and their offshoots) and Anglicans can do that). What's missing in these other churches is maintaining the original teachings of the Gospel. Roman Catholics (and offshoots) and Anglicans have corrupted the Gospel teachings. That's why they're not Orthodox.

[Jason]

Under Constantinopol?

What are you asking?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 04:53 PM

Under Constantinopol?

What are you asking?

I meant Constantine.

[Jason]

Yes, it was Saint Constantine who got the Bishops together to formulate once and for all the true and pure doctrine of Christology.

We believe that God worked through St. Constantine much like he did with the Babylonian kings. Using them to motivate his people.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 05:01 PM

Yes, it was Saint Constantine who got the Bishops together to formulate once and for all the true and pure doctrine of Christology.

We believe that God worked through St. Constantine much like he did with the Babylonian kings. Using them to motivate his people.

So it took three hundred years after Christ, for His leaders to teach a clear doctrine?

[Jason]

So it took three hundred years after Christ, for His leaders to teach a clear doctrine?

Haha. No.

The Church taught the truth from the beginning as received from the Apostles themselves. However, heresy is also a part of the Church. Wheat and Tares.

Up until St. Constantine, Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire. Heavily persecuted, many lost their lives in the arenas of the Empire. Meetings were held in the Catacombs (crypts) just to keep out of sight of the Imperial guards. Gatherings were small, and generally anyone who attempted to be vocal in favor of Christianity lost their lives to the lions or the flames.

Due to this unfortunate time, it was impossible to gather the Bishops (successors of the Apostles) together from around the Roman Empire to convene a council to renounce heresy.

That's why it took so long.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 05:19 PM

So it took three hundred years after Christ, for His leaders to teach a clear doctrine?

Haha. No.

The Church taught the truth from the beginning as received from the Apostles themselves. However, heresy is also a part of the Church. Wheat and Tares.

Up until St. Constantine, Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire. Heavily persecuted, many lost their lives in the arenas of the Empire. Meetings were held in the Catacombs (crypts) just to keep out of sight of the Imperial guards. Gatherings were small, and generally anyone who attempted to be vocal in favor of Christianity lost their lives to the lions or the flames.

Due to this unfortunate time, it was impossible to gather the Bishops (successors of the Apostles) together from around the Roman Empire to convene a council to renounce heresy.

That's why it took so long.

Yeah right. You know the LDS church hasn't even been around for 150 years and fraught with persecutions of every kind and we still have done better than that.

[Jason]

Yeah right. You know the LDS church hasn't even been around for 150 years and fraught with persecutions of every kind and we still have done better than that. 

It's a matter of historical fact, Amillia.

The LDS church, on the other hand, has undergone relative mild persecution in comparison. Correct me if Im wrong, but I don't recall a mormon being burned at the stake, crucified, or thrown to the lions just for being mormon. And all of that done under the auspicies of the US Government.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 07:04 PM

Yeah right. You know the LDS church hasn't even been around for 150 years and fraught with persecutions of every kind and we still have done better than that. 

It's a matter of historical fact, Amillia.

The LDS church, on the other hand, has undergone relative mild persecution in comparison. Correct me if Im wrong, but I don't recall a mormon being burned at the stake, crucified, or thrown to the lions just for being mormon. And all of that done under the auspicies of the US Government.

I don't agree. I think you are not facing facts. Too bad.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Amillia+May 3 2005, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ May 3 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 07:04 PM

Yeah right. You know the LDS church hasn't even been around for 150 years and fraught with persecutions of every kind and we still have done better than that. 

It's a matter of historical fact, Amillia.

The LDS church, on the other hand, has undergone relative mild persecution in comparison. Correct me if Im wrong, but I don't recall a mormon being burned at the stake, crucified, or thrown to the lions just for being mormon. And all of that done under the auspicies of the US Government.

I don't agree. I think you are not facing facts. Too bad.

Amillia, you are not facing reality. The LDS have changed the restored gospel much more in the short 160 years they have been around than the church that was begun in Rome in 361 AD (or whatever year that was.)

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Amillia+May 3 2005, 10:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ May 3 2005, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 11:28 AM

Amillia,

Priests, decons, and elders have all have their duties changed. Even their ages have changed. The 70s were in every ward, and now it is only a higher calling for a GA.

There was a time there was Assistance to the Apostles. And a time where there were no such thing. I believe scripture will explain these changes :

So God didn't know what He was talking about when he gave this "revelation" to Joseph Smith? Or did God plan on changing (key word) these things eventually, but gave them these instructions anyways?

Seems like your idea of God is one who kinda flows with the times.

Needs change and if you understand that the church is here for the perfecting of the saints, not for perfect saints, you should understand that leaders are left to find answers and try different things to gain experience.

You don't keep your toddler in a walker after he learns to walk, but you do use one to start out with to strengthen his legs. The Lord allows the leaders to have the right to make decisions and make mistakes until they can do a better job.

Could they really be expected to do everything perfectly without flaw and still grow....even the Lord learned obedience by the things he suffered. (NT)

Actually, using a walker is DETRIMENTAL to gaining muscle tone and strength in babies legs. They never have to support their own weight, hence, are ineffective in weigth resistance training, which is what a baby does all on it's own when it learns to stand and walk on their own 2 feet.

Thanks for the helpful analogy, Amilia. I can really see how it relates to THE CHURCH and the milk 'n meat-pearls before swine-line upon line stuff,an all. Great stuff, thanks again.

[Jason]

I don't agree. I think you are not facing facts. Too bad.

Which part is not a historical fact?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 3 2005, 07:31 PM

I don't agree. I think you are not facing facts. Too bad.

Which part is not a historical fact?

I won't be chatting with you anymore Jason. Jenda doesn't think I have a right. So enjoy talking to yourself.