My Final Thoughts On Mormonsim

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 17 2004, 02:31 PM

curvette,

I believe we should consider all the possibilities until we know the truth about something. Do you really believe you should keep an open mind after you know something is true, to the point where you should doubt that what you know isn’t true? I hope not. I do think we should be careful about what we claim to know, though.

What about people from other faiths who "know" that they have the truth? If their 'truth" doesn't agree with your "truth", do you continue to try to persuade them or do you let them alone?

[Ray]

I try to share my beliefs with other people. I don't expect people to accept what I am trying to share, and if they don't accept my what I offer, I "leave them alone" as long as their beliefs do no harm or injustice to other people.

Are you familiar with the passages in Alma that talk about leaving people alone with their beliefs, only bringing them into judgement when they commit crimes? I totally agree with that. America is a free country, where people should not be coerced into accepting the beliefs of anybody else. And as I have said before, I would die to uphold every persons right to form their own beliefs and worhip however or whatever they want.

Btw, my truth will be in agreement with anyone else's truth, if any of us have any "real" truth. There is no such thing as "personal" truth, since all truth is in harmony with all other truth regarding the same issue.

Jesus is the Christ, and that is either true for everybody or it isn't true at all. And just so you know, I testify that Jesus is the Christ, and that I am speaking the truth.

[USNationalist]

Ray-

It seems to me that you are totaly unwilling to admit to the potential of human fallacy. You do not KNOW your faith is true- and anyone who would claim that they have that absoloute knowledge is lieing to themselves. Even in the bible it says we only have hope that we are saved- because you do not hope for what you know will happen. Its a religion of faith- absoloute knowledge of its validity is somthing you get when you die. Unless God incarnate has apeared to you- you cant be sure. As the holy spirit can not be heard, seen, smelt, or touched.

It is also because of that human fallacy that religions shouldnt just be jumped into.

And as to your story about believing the prophets:

I would judge them by their works. And why they say- not the fullfillment of prophesy. If they say God is mad because we havent been good little jews- i would consider the jewish conduct and my own, and decide baised on that. If their teachings also did not contridict any previous scriptures i was aware of i would consider that in my decision.

I could claim to be a prophet- by the same standard in which you held me to- would you believe what i say before it comes to pass? Theres no difference between me and most of Gods prophets. Ordinary people making a show on the scene.

What is tought is what is judged. If you do a miricle- but contradict scripture your bogus. (there are many places to dig out miricles from..... satan, sorcery and the like)

[Ray]

The idea that people can’t know the truth about something without first being able to see it through the physical senses is just one more argument promoted by Lucifer and his disciples. I say you can know whether or not something is true through a means other than your physical senses, and if you would just think about that for a little while, I’m sure you could come to know that truth for yourself.

Think some more about how it would be to listen to one of those prophets I mentioned.

Think some more about what would convince you whether or not you needed to repent.

How would you know whether or not you were doing something that you should not do?

Would it only be because someone else was saying or had said that you shouldn’t do something?

If the ten commandments hadn’t been written yet, and even if they had been, how would you know whether or not those commandments had truly come from God, and not just from some person who made that claim?

Think some more in present terms, and consider how it would be to listen to Joseph Smith. Would you not believe that he was a prophet simply because some other people said so? Don’t you realize that there have always been people who have ignored what prophets have taught, supposing they are nothing more than men speaking for themselves?

Don’t you realize that people have killed prophets in the past, by stoning them, or burning them, or crucifying them, etc., simply because what those prophets said did not agree with what they thought was true?

Think some more about how Jesus was received by His hometown in Nazareth. Do you remember what He said? Of all the people who knew Him, you might think the people in His hometown would be among those who knew Him best as the person He truly was, but that’s not how it was, was it.

If you really believe that you can’t come to know the truth through Faith alone, that simply shows that you have yet to experience the power of Faith. Faith is an assurance from God, and if you know that God knows the truth, His assurance to you is all you need to know something.

If He assures you that something is true, then it’s true, and it doesn’t matter that you don’t have any physical evidence to support His claim.

Btw, an assurance from God doesn’t always give someone a knowledge of the truth, just as an assurance from someone else doesn’t automatically give a person a knowledge of what someone else knows, but once you experience what happens to you as you follow God’s counsel, which He assures you to be true through the power of the Holy Ghost, you can someday come to the point where you know the truth for yourself. But without Faith, or that assurance from God, there truly will be some things you will never know.

[USNationalist]

Your right Ray.

David Koresh was the christ come to us again. Its obviously so- since he was persecuted. Even to the point of death. And since all the true prophets faced simular bumps in the road- it is proof that the branch dividians were the true church.

And your also right about how the musslims are good God fearing people doing their duty to God when they go around blowing each other up and themselves in his name. After all- God has told the religious leaders to have people do this. And not only them- but has reaffirmed the martyrs themselves and fueling their religious vigor. Obviously the perceived truth given to them by God is evidence that we infedels deserve nothing short of a horrible gruesome death.

<<The idea that people can’t know the truth about something without first being able to see it through the physical senses is just one more argument promoted by Lucifer and his disciples.>>

-So your saying that the great decievers way of decieving us.... is by useing facts? And the those of us essentialy saying and believing things as bogus as things fall up when you drop them (which obviously isnt the case) are the ones who arent decieved?

<<If He assures you that something is true, then it’s true, and it doesn’t matter that you don’t have any physical evidence to support His claim.>>

-lack of evidence is one thing. Evidence to the contrary is totaly different.

To sum everything up. What you felt Ray- when praying over the BoM and to have its validity revealed to you WAS NOT GOD. And no matter how much you want to claim the contrary you can not deny the one simple fact that you have ZERO proof to do so with in any reason. And not only that- by your claims are right there with the "christians" that kill abortion doctors. Or musslims flying planes into buidlings.

Saying "God told me so" is bogus. Any thing that contradicts scripture is false. And also anything that would make a claim thats an absoloute lie (i.e. things fall up) is suspect and most likely bogus.

You can reason and make excuses all you want to justify why God didnt testify to me of the BoM. The simple fact is- i prayed with the same sincerety as you- you got an answer and i got a different one. As has been the case with the countless other christians who have said that same prayer.

[elinz]

I admire the Muslims, even Al Qaeda and Osama.

Osama lived the secular party life and had all the secular riches

that any man could want. He made an active choice to oppose

the course of history.

Anyone seen "The Butterfly Effect"? It's an interesting movie

about how a small change can effect the outcome of the future.

Think of the effect that the martyrdom of Jesus had on this

world! It's huge. And the "magnificent 19" as they are called

that did 911 made a huge impact in changing our world too.

911 divided America between the left and the right. The secular

and the religious. And this confrontation will likely only increase

as the years go on.

The days of sleeping are over...

[Ray]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 19 2004, 08:02 AM

Your right Ray.

David Koresh was the christ come to us again. Its obviously so- since he was persecuted. Even to the point of death. And since all the true prophets faced simular bumps in the road- it is proof that the branch dividians were the true church.

And your also right about how the musslims are good God fearing people doing their duty to God when they go around blowing each other up and themselves in his name. After all- God has told the religious leaders to have people do this. And not only them- but has reaffirmed the martyrs themselves and fueling their religious vigor. Obviously the perceived truth given to them by God is evidence that we infedels deserve nothing short of a horrible gruesome death.

<<The idea that people can’t know the truth about something without first being able to see it through the physical senses is just one more argument promoted by Lucifer and his disciples.>>

-So your saying that the great decievers way of decieving us.... is by useing facts? And the those of us essentialy saying and believing things as bogus as things fall up when you drop them (which obviously isnt the case) are the ones who arent decieved?

<<If He assures you that something is true, then it’s true, and it doesn’t matter that you don’t have any physical evidence to support His claim.>>

-lack of evidence is one thing. Evidence to the contrary is totaly different.

To sum everything up. What you felt Ray- when praying over the BoM and to have its validity revealed to you WAS NOT GOD. And no matter how much you want to claim the contrary you can not deny the one simple fact that you have ZERO proof to do so with in any reason. And not only that- by your claims are right there with the "christians" that kill abortion doctors. Or musslims flying planes into buidlings.

Saying "God told me so" is bogus. Any thing that contradicts scripture is false. And also anything that would make a claim thats an absoloute lie (i.e. things fall up) is suspect and most likely bogus.

You can reason and make excuses all you want to justify why God didnt testify to me of the BoM. The simple fact is- i prayed with the same sincerety as you- you got an answer and i got a different one. As has been the case with the countless other christians who have said that same prayer.

If you would think more about what I was actually trying to say instead of trying to counter argue against what you think I was saying, you might realize how silly you appear to be right now.

Do you really believe that everybody bases their acceptance of religious teachings on an assurance from God? Why would you think that, when it appears that your acceptance isn't based on receiving an assurance from God? Your acceptance of religious teachings seem to be based on your own reasoning and understanding, not on anything God has told you. And don’t use the argument that your views are in agreement with your understanding of the Bible. Lots of people think their views are in agreement with the Bible, and look at how many different views we have in this world.

If I could show you how the teachings in the Book of Mormon harmonize with the teachings in the Bible, would you accept the Book of Mormon teachings then? I don’t think so. I think you would come up with more excuses and “rational thinking” to support your own views.

If you ever really want to know the truth about religous teachings, especially about things you can't see for yourself, you will need God's assurance before you can know whether or not it's true. If you never receive God's assurance, your reasoning will always be based only on your own thoughts or the thoughts of somebody else other than God.

Btw, I won't be talking to you anymore about this because I have said everything that I can say, other than to quote scripture. I hope you find all the happiness you desire. Take care.

[USNationalist]

....maybe you never read the part about the validation of my faith through the experiences i have had in dealing with the holy gohst.

I think joeseph smiths false prophecies, the complete 100% lack of archeological evidnce supporting the BoM and the actions of the church are evidence enough that what you believe is a creation of man.

There is no point to beleiving in a faith if you dont have what you think to be spiritual confirmations of it but at the same time it is complete idiocy to allow that over rule simple and plain facts.

My faith is a healthy balance of both- which is more then i can say for yours.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 20 2004, 12:54 PM

....maybe you never read the part about the validation of my faith through the experiences i have had in dealing with the holy gohst.

I think joeseph smiths false prophecies, the complete 100% lack of archeological evidnce supporting the BoM and the actions of the church are evidence enough that what you believe is a creation of man.

There is no point to beleiving in a faith if you dont have what you think to be spiritual confirmations of it but at the same time it is complete idiocy to allow that over rule simple and plain facts.

My faith is a healthy balance of both- which is more then i can say for yours.

'idiocy'....in Rays court and 'balance' in yours.

LOL doesn't sound the least bit prejudicial or biased to me. NOT! LOL

[USNationalist]

he started it

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 20 2004, 01:23 PM

he started it

LOL

[Ray]

Originally posted by USNationalist@ Feb 20 2004, 12:54 PM

I think Joseph Smith’s false prophecies, the complete 100% lack of archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon and the actions of the church are evidence enough that what you believe is a creation of man. – spelling corrected and clarified

Which prophecies are you referring to, and how can you prove that Joseph Smith is the one who made those prophecies? While I can’t claim to know every prophecy made by Joseph Smith, I do know about a lot of them, and there isn’t one that I know of that hasn’t come true or is yet to be fulfilled in the future.

And regarding no “archaeological evidence”…how do you know that the archeological evidence that remains on the American continents isn’t what remains of the civilizations spoken of in the Book of Mormon? What are you waiting for, the discovery of some other plates to describe the civilizations that once existed here? My knowledge that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be comes from God, and I know of no other “proof” that can convince me otherwise. Sure, Men have come up with other explanations for the evidence that might be true, but how am I to know which of those explanations is true? What else do I need to know before I should rely on a testimony from God, rather than what some Men have to say?

My final advice to you is to read and examine the Book of Mormon, to discover for yourself what these writings declare. I recommend that you start reading it from the beginning, from the title page to the very end. When questions come to your mind, make a note for further study later. If you first concentrate on trying to understand what the book declares, by the people who wrote this book, you will then be better prepared to concentrate on questions concerning whether or not their declarations are true.

I had questions concerning this book too, when I first discovered it, and while those questions have now been answered, I still come up with questions and answers each time I read it. I can help to explain anything you want to know about this book, and how the teachings within this book harmonize with all other scripture, including the Bible, but your goal should be to discover for yourself whether or not this book is truly what it claims to be, and for that you will need God's help. Forget everything that Man has ever told you, and rely only on God to assure you of the truth.

I can promise that if you will carefully consider what this book declares, with a sincere desire to know the truth, and a sincere intent to abide by the truth no matter what the costs, you will come to know that this book is truly what it claims to be. This is essentially a promise that was made by a person who helped to write this book, and if he made it through the inspiration of God, God will certainly honor it.

I personally witness that God has honored this promise, and that I have come to know through the power of the Holy Ghost that this book is what it claims to be.

I also testify that I have spoken the truth regarding everything I am telling you, and that I am prepared to stand before God to witness that I gave you this message. Until we meet again. Farewell.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 20 2004, 12:54 PM

I think Joseph Smith’s false prophecies, the complete 100% lack of archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon and the actions of the church are evidence enough that what you believe is a creation of man.

According to that logic, all Christianity is just creation of man...

I think joseph smiths false prophecies

I have heard that JS made false prophecies.

I have heard the Bible made false prophecies too.

Here is the part where Jesus predicts he will return within one generation...now, almost 2000 years later, he has not returned.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

the complete 100% lack of archeological evidence

The BoM lacks archaeological evidence for its characters and events (not its setting...America exists)

The Bible lacks archaeological evidence for its characters and events (not its setting...the Middle East exists). At least until someone posts something credible in my thread on proofs for the Bible.

actions of the church

All churches do crazy things. Remember the Crusades? The Inquisition? The insane statements made by the "Fundamentalist Religious Right" here in the USA (Jerry Falwell, for example)?

[Ray]

Tao,

I can explain how those prophecies of our Lord were fulfilled, just as I can explain how many prophecies that have been attributed to Joseph Smith have been fulfilled, but rather than explain those things to you, I would rather have you be open to the possibility that it can all be explained. You need one of those “Ahh-haa” moments, as your mind is illuminated and your soul is filled by the power of the Holy Ghost, and only God can give you that.

Have you seen the movie called “God’s Army”? I just saw that last weekend, while my wife and I were celebrating our wedding anniversary at the beach. I had heard about it before, but I didn’t feel motivated to get it until now. Anyway, it’s a really good movie that shows what many missionaries are up against as they try to share the gospel with others. It portrays many different personality types, and my favorite guy was Pappy. Next time I need to come up with an internet identity, I think I’ll use that one. :)

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 20 2004, 03:17 PM

I can explain how those prophecies of our Lord were fulfilled, just as I can explain how many prophecies that have been attributed to Joseph Smith have been fulfilled...

Yes, I know you could come up with an explanation for all these prophecies.

I already knew there would be Bible apologists for Jesus' prophecies, just as their are Mormon apoogists for Joseph Smith's prophecies.

That is my point to USN.

Both Joseph Smith and Jesus have evidence for and against them (every prophet does).

Mostly, it is against them, which is why faith is important.