A Verse About Promises

[lattelady]

I did not grow up in the church; I'm trying to make sense of a verse I came across on this forum. It's reference was D&C 82:10 "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." Is this in regard to the promise of one's eternal salvation? I found it to be discouraging, based on my own failings and propensity to sin.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I did not grow up in the church; I'm trying to make sense of a verse I came across on this forum. It's reference was D&C 82:10 "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." Is this in regard to the promise of one's eternal salvation? I found it to be discouraging, based on my own failings and propensity to sin.

I believe the verse doesn't just regard salvation, but that it applies to EVERY blessing the Lord would give. Cross-reference Doctrine and Covenants 130 :20-21

"20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

Conversely to that, if we disobey the law, we can not receive the blessing which requires obedience to that law.

However, "I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say" and one thing the Lord has said is "repent", and the blessing which we receive when we obey the law of repentence is forgiveness. That should be encouraging :)

Read 2 Nephi 4 :)

[deseretgov]

It is impossible for us to be 100% obedient. What matters is our intent. Are we trying our best to follow God's commandments.

[lattelady]

So it applies to blessing the Lord gives, but it DOES apply also to our salvation? Are you saying that it teaches the promise of our salvation can be revoked if we disobey? That is scary.

[lattelady]

If it does apply to our salvation, is salvation a once-for-all act (you secure salvation in a one-time act), or a progressive thing (your whole life you are in an act of BEING SAVED), or a repetitive thing you do each time you've disobeyed and the promise you had from God is broken, then you must regain salvation again? (does this make sense?)

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

So it applies to blessing the Lord gives, but it DOES apply also to our salvation? Are you saying that it teaches the promise of our salvation can be revoked if we disobey? That is scary.

It's also common sense. Salvation is a blessing. Would you offer the blessing of everlasting life to somebody who misused their mortal life? But the Gospel isn't a gospel of fear, it's a gospel of HOPE.

Moroni 10

20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.

21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

Jeremiah 15

18 Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

20 And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the Lord.

21 And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

You're focusing on the punishment for failure, not the reward for success. Change your attitude, be positive, and focus on the good :)

If it does apply to our salvation, is salvation a once-for-all act (you secure salvation in a one-time act), or a progressive thing (your whole life you are in an act of BEING SAVED), or a repetitive thing you do each time you've disobeyed and the promise you had from God is broken, then you must regain salvation again? (does this make sense?)

None of the above and all of the above. You have to live your whole life as best you can (ie progressive), however we can't all live a perfect life, so we have to repent regularly (repetitive). And at the final judgement, after all that we can do - after doing the absolute best we are capable of and repenting of our sins - the atonement comes along and makes up the difference (one time thing).

There is no single act you can perform to be classified as "saved" and then do whatever you want. The Lord has said that disobedience can nullify past forgiveness ( Doctrine and Covenants 82 ), therefore we must be constantly vigilant that we do not sin, and when we do sin we must immediately repent.

As a convert, you may be thinking of "saved" as a state of being that we achieve here on earth after accepting Christ. This is false doctrine. No one is "saved" in this life. This life is a kind of probation where we demonstrate our willingness to be obedient. If we serve our probation honorably by being faithful, obedient, and repentant, then when Christ judges us, he will Judge us worthy and only then are we "saved".

[lattelady]

Are you ever afraid that in the end, after you've tried as valiently and vigilantly as you can to be obedient and served as honorably as you know how, that it won't be enough? I'm not TRYING to focus on the punishment for failure, but there's no GUARANTEE if ultimate success...

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Are you ever afraid that in the end, after you've tried as valiently and vigilantly as you can to be obedient and served as honorably as you know how, that it won't be enough? I'm not TRYING to focus on the punishment for failure, but there's no GUARANTEE if ultimate success...

Odds Are You're Going to Be Exalted: Evidence That the Plan of Salvation Works

[ryanh]

I think Puf covered it pretty well.

Yes, there have been times that I have been overwhelmed thinking that I just am too fallible to make it. But, as I have studied the matter, and prayed about it, I have come to understand that so long as our underlying intent is to do as good as we can, and love and come to God, then we are on the right path. Even if we are messing up left and right. As long as our heart is good, and we have that intent to become more like God, and we act upon that intent, we are ok. I suspect that those who love the Lord will be surprised at the mercy and love shown us after this life.

Ever heard of the Parable of the Bicycle by Stephen Robinson?

After I had come home from school one day, I was sitting in a chair reading the newspaper. My daughter Sarah, who was seven years old, came in and said, "Dad, can I have a bike? I'm the only kid on the block who doesn't have a bike."

Well, I didn't have enough money to buy her a bike, so I stalled her and said, "Sure, Sarah."

She said, "How? When?"

I said, "You save all your pennies, and pretty soon you'll have enough for a bike." And she went away.

A couple of weeks later as I was sitting in the same chair, I was aware of Sarah doing something for her mother and getting paid. She went into the other room and I heard "clink, clink." I asked, "Sarah, what are you doing?"

She came out and she had a little jar all cleaned up with a slit cut in the lid and a bunch of pennies in the bottom. She looked at me and said, "You promised me that if I saved all my pennies, pretty soon I'd have enough for a bike. And, Daddy, I've saved every single one of them."

She's my daughter, and I love her. My heart melted. She was doing everything in her power to follow my instructions. I hadn't actually lied to her. If she saved all of her pennies she would eventually have enough for a bike, but by then she would want a car. But her needs weren't being met. Because I love her, I said, "Let's go downtown and look at bikes."

We went to every store in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. Finally we found it--the perfect bicycle, the one she knew in the premortal existence. She got up on that bike; she was thrilled. She then saw the price tag, reached down, and turned it over. When she saw how much it cost, her face fell and she started to cry. She said, "Oh Dad, I'll never have enough for a bicycle."

So I said, "Sarah, how much do you have?"

She answered, "Sixty-one cents."

"I'll tell you what. You give me everything you've got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours." Well, she's never been stupid. She gave me a hug and a kiss. She gave me the sixty-one cents. Then I had to drive home very slowly because she wouldn't get off the bike. She rode home on the sidewalk, and as I drove along slowly beside her it occurred to me that this was a parable for the Atonement of Christ.

We all want something desperately--it isn't a bicycle. We want the celestial kingdom. We want to be with our Father in Heaven. And no matter how hard we try, we come up short. At some point we realize, "I can't do this!" That was the point my wife had reached. It is at that point that the sweetness of the gospel covenant comes to our taste as the Savior proposes, "I'll tell you what. All right, you're not perfect. How much do you have? What can you do? Where are you now? Give me all you've got, and I'll pay the rest. Give me a hug and a kiss; enter into a personal relationship with me, and I will do what remains undone."

Believing Christ: A Practical Approach to the Atonement

[Guest missingsomething]

I did not grow up in the church; I'm trying to make sense of a verse I came across on this forum. It's reference was D&C 82:10 "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." Is this in regard to the promise of one's eternal salvation? I found it to be discouraging, based on my own failings and propensity to sin.

Its in relation to any promise that has been made.

And dont be discouraged - we all make mistakes and have fallen - and that is why Christ came and became an intermediary for us - so that when we truly repented - our short comings would be forgiven.... and by the way we are told to repent... so see... :) you are doing what he has asked when you repent! whoo hooo.!

[lattelady]

I know you say, "I suspect that those who love the Lord will be suprised at the mercy and love shown to us after this life", ryanh, but I wonder then why there has to be degrees of salvation. Why wouldn't there just be salvation? To me, mercy and love would say--you did the best you could and my love and mercy is given to you, my beloved child! Instead, I see in this "degrees of glory" issue that--for example-- if a person isn't married, they cannot be elevated to the celetial kingdom. To me that feels like punishment rather than mercy and love. I just don't know how to know how to ever be GOOD ENOUGH and what is the true standard by whch to follow.

[ryanh]

Why wouldn't there just be salvation?

Do you feel that an unrepentant murderer should have the same eternal fate as one that accepted the Savior and tried their best? Sending the unrepentant murder to the telestial kingdom (the lowest kingdom) will not be punishment. It will not be 'fair'. It will be reward that we can't even comprehend. Those people were faithful in the premortal existence, and for their choice to come to earth, they will go to what most people think of as "heaven". Most of those that were truly rebelious to God never came to this earth. Everyone on this earth will be rewared with appropriate glory.

Lattelady, I fear you're straining too hard to try to see it, and missing how wonderful the plan really is. Perhaps what you are missing is an understanding that even the Telestial kingdom is not punishment in the least form.

Instead, I see in this "degrees of glory" issue that--for example-- if a person isn't married, they cannot be elevated to the celetial kingdom. To me that feels like punishment rather than mercy and love.

That's not technically accurate. There will be lots that will enter the Celestial kingdom that are not married. Countless people. But, to enter into the highest order of the Celestial kingdom, yes, people must enter into the ordinance of sealing.

What did Christ say when he was on the earth about baptism? It's requisite right? Even He Himself was baptized. Why would it be any different to obtain additional blessings that there would be steps to be taken to obtain them?

One aspect where our Father's plan is so merciful is that he doesn't require every step to be taken in this life. There will be billions that have never had the chance to be baptized while living on the earth, but which were good people. They will have chances to be baptized and be taught of God and Jesus Christ, and have a chance to accept it. Church leaders say time and again that the single women that never have a chance to marry will not be omitted from the highest degrees of the Celestial kingdom because they didn't have an opportunity to be sealed to someone here on earth. They will be given opportunities, and denied no blessings.

I just don't know how to know how to ever be GOOD ENOUGH and what is the true standard by whch to follow.

If you seek, you shall find. I wasn't able to let go of my own feelings of being overwhelmed because I felt fallible just because I read some neat quote or talked to people. I had to get on my knees and find out my status. It took work and time, but I was blessed with an understanding of how much our Heavenly Father loves us, and how incredibly merciful Jesus Christ will be in interceeding for us. You can too. Perhaps you should talk with you Bishop and discuss your concerns with him. He can help guide you in this matter.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I know you say, "I suspect that those who love the Lord will be suprised at the mercy and love shown to us after this life", ryanh, but I wonder then why there has to be degrees of salvation. Why wouldn't there just be salvation? To me, mercy and love would say--you did the best you could and my love and mercy is given to you, my beloved child! Instead, I see in this "degrees of glory" issue that--for example-- if a person isn't married, they cannot be elevated to the celetial kingdom. To me that feels like punishment rather than mercy and love. I just don't know how to know how to ever be GOOD ENOUGH and what is the true standard by whch to follow.

The standard is a pretty simple one - "Be ye therefore perfect". Yeah, it can be pretty intimidating at first. What you have to do is study and learn and work and gain a testimony of the Plan of SALVATION (not the "Plan of damnation"). The Plan of Happiness, not the "Plan of Sorrow". The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior - you can not be saved unless you're in danger. The Lord Jesus Christ is our Redeemer - you can not be redeemed unless you have fallen. None of us is perfect and none of us will be in this life. But as long as we strive to be as good as we possibly can, as long as we repent and endure to the end, we can be made perfect through the blood of the Lamb.

You said you have a "propensity to sin". What I think you need is the repentance process. Read the book "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and learn about how repentance works, and as you repent you'll feel the love of Christ and you'll gain a testimony of forgiveness and how the Plan of Salvation really is a plan for your personal happiness and eternal glory.

Isaiah 1 :18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

[lattelady]

Thankyou, puf, for your response; I appreciate the insights you've given. I hope you don't mind the fact that my questions keep coming...but there seem to be alot of them. Hope you're not frustrated by them. Another question I have in light of the answer you last posted is: You said "The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior-you can not be saved unless you're in danger." What are we in danger of, ultimately? Other posts have mentioned that the three degrees of glory have no punishment to them whatsoever, so what would be the danger?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Thankyou, puf, for your response; I appreciate the insights you've given. I hope you don't mind the fact that my questions keep coming...but there seem to be alot of them. Hope you're not frustrated by them. Another question I have in light of the answer you last posted is: You said "The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior-you can not be saved unless you're in danger." What are we in danger of, ultimately? Other posts have mentioned that the three degrees of glory have no punishment to them whatsoever, so what would be the danger?

Doctrine and Covenants 131 "He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."

While even the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest one) is much better than this earthly life, if you don't live worthy of the Celestial Kingdom (and the highest degree within that Kingdom), you are stuck where you are. The real reward for the faithful is "eternal progression" - the idea that we can continue to learn and grow throughout all eternity. We believe that through faithfulness and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel that we can, eventually, progress to become as God. But only those worthy of exaltation in the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom can achieve this goal. Everyone else's progression stops dead.

So the danger is that you could miss out on eternal blessings; that you could not achieve the greater glory. And if you're really bad - you're in danger of outer darkness - an eternal hell for only the most evil of evil people, that place where Satan will dwell.

[bytor2112]

I often hear confusion and stress over the idea of being perfect or perfect adherence to ALL of the commandments. When we refer to Christ as our Savior....what has he saved us from? Physical and Spiritual death. Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ ALL mankind will be resurrected and live forever, the most valiant to live with Heavenly Father in HIS kingdom.

but I wonder then why there has to be degrees of salvation. Why wouldn't there just be salvation? To me, mercy and love would say--you did the best you could and my love and mercy is given to you, my beloved child! Instead, I see in this "degrees of glory" issue that--for example-- if a person isn't married, they cannot be elevated to the celetial kingdom. To me that feels like punishment rather than mercy and love. I just don't know how to know how to ever be GOOD ENOUGH and what is the true standard by whch to follow.

What is the standard? What is required to receive Eternal Life ( exaltation)?

1. Enter into the strait and narrow gate of baptism and receipt of the Holy Ghost.

2. Receive all the saving ordinances available to you in the Temple, including the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.

3. Be faithful to the covenants that you made with the Lord and repent along the way.

Pretty simple process. Stay in the main stream of the church, pray and study the scriptures and strive to love your fellow man.....all will be well. As for the other Kingdoms of Glory.....there will be many who will not accept Christ or HIS teachings and cannot abide a higher law and thus cannot receive a higher Glory, yet they may receive a glory because of the love that Heavenly Father has for them.

Edited August 17, 2009 by bytor2112

[lattelady]

"Pretty simple process"... :)

[bytor2112]

"Pretty simple process"... :)

I checked out your profile and see that you are not LDS....should have guessed by the name "Latte" lady...oh well.

I better understand your questions now........

[lattelady]

What does that mean, exactly?

[bytor2112]

What does that mean, exactly?

Your not LDS...right or am I mistaken?I am guessing since your profile says Christian and your user name references a coffee drink......... If you are not, I see how these things might be confusing to you.....or if you are new to the faith, they may be confusing as well.

No offense intended.:)

Edited August 17, 2009 by bytor2112

[lattelady]

I never made a profile--so if it says anything, I didn't write it. But no, I am not LDS. I didn't take offense to what you said, I just wondered: would it change the answers to my question? Probably not; maybe just the WAY you anwer my questions. Is it okay for me to ask my questions here, or is there a better place for me to post them on this webpage?

[ryanh]

It wouldn't have changed what I said, but I probably would have explained things a lot more simply and not assumed you were familiar with some fundamental aspects. Now I can understand much better why you might have interpreted some things as punishment.

Often, when someone says they "did not grow up in the church", they are specifying that they are a convert (like myself) and not someone that was born into an LDS family. So, given my assumption (bad me), I didn't give the more simple/fundamental explanations that I probably would have otherwise.

[bytor2112]

I never made a profile--so if it says anything, I didn't write it. But no, I am not LDS. I didn't take offense to what you said, I just wondered: would it change the answers to my question? Probably not; maybe just the WAY you anwer my questions. Is it okay for me to ask my questions here, or is there a better place for me to post them on this webpage?

No, not at all. Happy to answer the questions......like ryanh said, probably would have explained things a little more in detail.

Welcome to the site!!:)

[lattelady]

Thankyou very much for being kind! I've been in Utah since the fourth grade and it was interesting being raised here as not part of the predominant faith. Thankyou for the welcome. :)

[Guest missingsomething]

Ryan and Bytor... tsk tsk... now... she said she was not lds in her OP. DERRR (men )