Effective Baptism in the Reformed tradition

[AnthonyB]

This post is for Eric, if he is still around! It is a long article and probably not of much interest to most posters.

Eric,

I found this article and I think it argues quite well that the modern reformed and evanglelical veiw is not the only veiw possible on baptism even within the reformed tradition

If your still around I'd enjoy reading your thoughts.

joelgarver.com - baptismal regeneration and WCF 28.6

Edited August 23, 2009 by AnthonyB

[ErikJohnson]

Hey AnthonyB--

Yeah, I'm still kickin'. Between community, family and work, precious little time to enjoy perspectives on the forum.

Regarding "baptismal regeneration"--I recently finished Lewis Drummond's biography, "Spurgeon - Prince of Preachers." This was a subject of controversy in Spurgeon's day. And I agree fully with his assertion--"Baptism without faith saves no one."

Honestly not sure where LDS come down on the question. In my experience, no shortage of LDS 8-year-olds mouthing "testimonies" on their day of baptism (I was once one of them). From an LDS perspective, is it still a "saving ordinance" if the participant lacks "faith?" I think the answer for LDS would have to be "yes"--but I'm not certain.

Always happy to take correction.

Regards,

--Erik

Edited February 1, 2010 by ErikJohnson

[Faded]

Hey AnthonyB--

Yeah, I'm still kickin'. Between community, family and work, precious little time to enjoy perspectives on the forum.

Regarding "baptismal regeneration"--I recently finished Lewis Drummond's biography, "Spurgeon - Prince of Preachers." This was a subject of controversy in Spurgeon's day. And I agree fully with his assertion--"Baptism without faith saves no one."

Honestly not sure where LDS come down on the question. In my experience, no shortage of LDS 8-year-olds mouthing "testimonies" on their day of baptism (I was once one of them). From an LDS perspective, is it still a "saving ordinance" if the participant lacks "faith?" I think the answer for LDS would have to be "yes"--but I'm not certain.

Always happy to take correction.

Regards,

--Erik

I actually agree with the general thought: that if an 8 year old child does not understand the commitment they are making, then it would seem to be "baptism without faith." I don't think that the LDS Church intends that to happen at all. It's certainly a sight better than infant baptism -- as I'm sure that no infant can hope to comprehend what is going on at their baptism.

As I have gotten older, I've always found it extremely puzzling that a number of people felt they didn't understand what was happening when they were baptized at age 8. I most certainly understood. And while I lacked the maturity I possess now, it was an incredibly spiritual experience in my life. I think that comes of knowing what you are committing to. I can say with certainty that I understood the commitment I was making at the time and I will endeavor to ensure that my own children can say the same thing.

That's all I had to say on the matter.

[AnthonyB]

Erik,

"Baptism without faith saves no one" is exactly what I believe, just that I would put it the positive, "Baptism with faith saves". I have just finished reading H Wheeler Robinson's "Baptist Principles" but I have got the feeling that both he and Beasley-Murray would be thrown out of the SBC.

As wedding with loving commitment is how we mark the beginning of marriage.

Baptism with faith commitment is how we are meant normally to mark the beginning of being Christians.

Faded,

I have a 7 year old, I will really be surprised if he reaches an point where I believe baptism would be appropriate by the time he is 8. Sure he can parrot our beliefs but is it a personal faith commitment not just wanting to please his parents.

Edited February 2, 2010 by AnthonyB

[WillowTheWhisp]

I believe faith grows. It's like Alma says. When we get baptised, be it at 8 or older, the spark of faith we have then may be small but if we nuture it, it grows. When we renew those covenants in the sacrament meeting our faith may have grown or may have diminished but that is where it becomes the 'baptism plus faith' thing, baptism followed by a developing faith. It may well be that we get baptised as an adult with a 'perfect understanding' (if there can ever be such a thing) and a strong testimony but then we allow it to shrivel and die. That baptism would mean less than the 8 year old child's whose faith later developed into something strong and powerful.

So it's a two-part thing. The first part is a one-off action, the second part is a life-time development.

[Faded]

Faded,

I have a 7 year old, I will really be surprised if he reaches an point where I believe baptism would be appropriate by the time he is 8. Sure he can parrot our beliefs but is it a personal faith commitment not just wanting to please his parents.

I can see your point. One thing to consider though: When I was very young I was always absolutely astounded at how ignorant and stupid adults tended to assume that I and every child my age really was. It is possible that I was just a very mature kid with a decent enough mind, but I knew God and had experienced a witnesses from the Spirit on several matters by the time I was 5 years old. I already knew who Jesus Christ was and what he meant in my life, and I still was 3 years away from baptism. I don't think I was extremely unique in that fact. I just think that a lot of adults greatly underestimate children.

Just like the 40 year old convert who is truly experiencing the reality of Jesus Christ for the first time in their life, when I was a young child I had A LOT to learn about pretty much everything in my walk with Christ. I was no less ready to enter into the covenant relationship with Him than that 40 year old convert.

Food for thought, that's all.

[jshippen]

I agree with the last two comments about baptism. Yes faith is required, but there are several levels of faith. There is the faith of the Brother of Jared, which was so great that he was able to see the Lord face to face. But on a much smaller level there is the faith of a child that is usually small but often times very pure and real. I also agree that children are often times underestimated with their knowledge and ability to learn and understand. The thing is, everyone is different. The Lord didnt require the people he taught to be all knowing or scholarly, he told even those who had only a desire to believe to follow him and they were baptized. For some people the Lord has given them the opportunity to be baptized at age 8. To others he has given the opportunity to grasp the gospel at an older age. These are things we don't fully understand because God is all knowing and he knows what each of us need at different times in our lives. With that given I think that faith is required for baptism, but it depends on what we define as faith.

[Dymmesdale]

May I suggest looking into 1 Peter 3:18-22, with regards to baptism? I believe this passage makes a strong case for the saving power of baptism. Baptism has everything to do with the New Covenant, and Christ's fulfillment of it. I find it very helpful to think about baptism the same way the Israelites thought about circumcision. It was the sacrament that brought an individual into God's Church, just as baptism does today. The flood was a forerunner of baptism, in that it saved Noah from the evil of the old world, and delivered him into new life in the new world, just as we are saved from sin by baptism (having a good conscience toward God), and brought thereby into new life in Christ.