Alma 18: 23

[Guest kimballkjar]

When verse 23 in Alma 18 says about King Lamoni that "he was caught with guile"--what does this mean? The footnote goes to Joshua 9: 22 and references being "beguiled" and that footnote notes "deception." Was Ammon decieving the King? Or does it mean something else?

Thanks,

KMK

[seamusz]

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here. The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni. It says that he “caught him with guile.” Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.” I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach. In other words, he knew what he was doing. Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

[Guest kimballkjar]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even choppoing off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by kimballkjar+Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even choppoing off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

[Guest kimballkjar]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM-->

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even choppoing off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

←

How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by kimballkjar+Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even choppoing off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

I wonder why someone would even question a guy chopping off the arms of a huge group of men attacking just this one guy. I would think the odds would dictate doing something to protect oneself.... LOL

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by kimballkjar+Sep 9 2005, 08:41 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used suduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even choppoing off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

←

How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

←

You took it out of the righteous context and put it into your own DARK context. YOu have not really wanted to see anything good in the BofM and all you can do is try and find fault. I find that sick and wrong.

Are you advocating that Ammon just sit there and allow the multitude of theives to scatter the sheep. If it was his job to protect the sheep and these guys would kill him if he tried to do his job, I would think, given the times they lived in, the smart thing to do would be get rid of the arms that were holding the swords that were going to kill me. He only chopped the arms off that were raised against him.

He didn't do it to glorify himself... though there were those who were in awe. . . of what he did. But God is the one giving him the strength to do what he did... he didn't give himself that strength to keep the sheep and himself safe while facing a large group of men by himself...

And he wasn't just protecting the sheep. He was protecting his men from being killed by the king... HE WAS A HERO!!! and he didn't do that to get the king to listen... he did that to safe the men and the sheep.... doing his job.....

[Guest kimballkjar]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 9 2005, 08:58 PM-->

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used seduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even chopping off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

←

How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

←

You took it out of the righteous context and put it into your own DARK context. YOu have not really wanted to see anything good in the BofM and all you can do is try and find fault. I find that sick and wrong.

Are you advocating that Ammon just sit there and allow the multitude of thieves to scatter the sheep. If it was his job to protect the sheep and these guys would kill him if he tried to do his job, I would think, given the times they lived in, the smart thing to do would be get rid of the arms that were holding the swords that were going to kill me. He only chopped the arms off that were raised against him.

He didn't do it to glorify himself... though there were those who were in awe. . . of what he did. But God is the one giving him the strength to do what he did... he didn't give himself that strength to keep the sheep and himself safe while facing a large group of men by himself...

And he wasn't just protecting the sheep. He was protecting his men from being killed by the king... HE WAS A HERO!!! and he didn't do that to get the king to listen... he did that to safe the men and the sheep.... doing his job.....

←

Wow! You're quick to judge my friend. I'm not trying to find fault...I have testimony of the BofM's truth and am trying to find an answer to a simple question. You obviously are off the mark. But I'll humor you to this point.

You say that he was only doing his job and not being premeditated in his activities, but why then did Ammon begin to become overjoyed at the sight of his shepherding colleagues crying and wailing for fear as they were assaulted by a band of thugs?

"Alma 17:29 Now they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now when Ammon saw this his heart was swollen within him with joy; for, said he, I will show forth my power unto these my fellow-servants, or the power which is in me, in restoring these flocks unto the king, that I may win the hearts of these my fellow-servants, that I may lead them to believe in my words."

And then I revert back to my original question with this above scenario as a backdrop: Why does Alma 18:23 say that Ammon caught the King with guile? It seems such a negative word to use.

I appreciate your answer you gave originally, but it seems so stock now that I think about it. Its my opinion that Ammon was being very calculated in his actions--even the slaying and dismembering of the thieves. Sure, he was doing his job, but he wouldn't have even been in the situation if he hadn't given any forethought to what he was saying when he told the King that desired to be his "servant." I believe he was also led by the Spirit to do what he did and say what he did. He had to be "wise as serpent" in order to the King to not only listen, but also believe his words. In this sense "guile" is taken in a context of Ammon being calculated and premeditated in all of his actions. Yes, he was doing his job, but he wasn't doing it without an end or purpose in mind and this is shown by Ammon's ability to convince the King with "guile."

Personally, there probably was a better word that could be used there in the interpreting of the situation, but "guile", even with its negative connotations, aptly describes Ammon's forethought and premeditated pattern of doing things to achieve a specific end--that being the conversion of his brethren the Lamanites.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by kimballkjar+Sep 10 2005, 08:49 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used seduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even chopping off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

←

How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

←

You took it out of the righteous context and put it into your own DARK context. YOu have not really wanted to see anything good in the BofM and all you can do is try and find fault. I find that sick and wrong.

Are you advocating that Ammon just sit there and allow the multitude of thieves to scatter the sheep. If it was his job to protect the sheep and these guys would kill him if he tried to do his job, I would think, given the times they lived in, the smart thing to do would be get rid of the arms that were holding the swords that were going to kill me. He only chopped the arms off that were raised against him.

He didn't do it to glorify himself... though there were those who were in awe. . . of what he did. But God is the one giving him the strength to do what he did... he didn't give himself that strength to keep the sheep and himself safe while facing a large group of men by himself...

And he wasn't just protecting the sheep. He was protecting his men from being killed by the king... HE WAS A HERO!!! and he didn't do that to get the king to listen... he did that to safe the men and the sheep.... doing his job.....

←

Wow! You're quick to judge my friend. I'm not trying to find fault...I have testimony of the BofM's truth and am trying to find an answer to a simple question. You obviously are off the mark. But I'll humor you to this point.

You say that he was only doing his job and not being premeditated in his activities, but why then did Ammon begin to become overjoyed at the sight of his shepherding colleagues crying and wailing for fear as they were assaulted by a band of thugs?

"Alma 17:29 Now they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now when Ammon saw this his heart was swollen within him with joy; for, said he, I will show forth my power unto these my fellow-servants, or the power which is in me, in restoring these flocks unto the king, that I may win the hearts of these my fellow-servants, that I may lead them to believe in my words."

And then I revert back to my original question with this above scenario as a backdrop: Why does Alma 18:23 say that Ammon caught the King with guile? It seems such a negative word to use.

I appreciate your answer you gave originally, but it seems so stock now that I think about it. Its my opinion that Ammon was being very calculated in his actions--even the slaying and dismembering of the thieves. Sure, he was doing his job, but he wouldn't have even been in the situation if he hadn't given any forethought to what he was saying when he told the King that desired to be his "servant." I believe he was also led by the Spirit to do what he did and say what he did. He had to be "wise as serpent" in order to the King to not only listen, but also believe his words. In this sense "guile" is taken in a context of Ammon being calculated and premeditated in all of his actions. Yes, he was doing his job, but he wasn't doing it without an end or purpose in mind and this is shown by Ammon's ability to convince the King with "guile."

Personally, there probably was a better word that could be used there in the interpreting of the situation, but "guile", even with its negative connotations, aptly describes Ammon's forethought and premeditated pattern of doing things to achieve a specific end--that being the conversion of his brethren the Lamanites.

←

I once thought my Sunday school teacher was out of line for using the word analogus in any context other than art... where I had first heard it used. But I have since read hundreds of novels and they use words in a way that I wouldn't think proper, except that it gives pause and challenge to the reader to work the word in a different way than they are used to working. It requires them to stretch and grow a little in their narrow habitual thinking pattern.

I find the word perfectly positive in the context. If you are a problem solver... which my husband is a genious at, you use a different part of your brain to work things out ... I believe Ammon was just such a guy as my husband.

Yes it takes thinking to be a problem solver. I think as a mother, I have used guile to get my kids to see themselves clearly so they could work on their own problems. I have seldom been able to just come up to them and tell them what their problem is and expect them not to rebel against me, creating another problem instead of solving any.

God uses this same method with teaching his children.... He puts us in situations which clearly define our weaknesses and we have to be humbled enough to see them and work on them...

[Guest kimballkjar]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 10 2005, 09:43 AM-->

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 10 2005, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used seduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even chopping off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

←

How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

←

You took it out of the righteous context and put it into your own DARK context. YOu have not really wanted to see anything good in the BofM and all you can do is try and find fault. I find that sick and wrong.

Are you advocating that Ammon just sit there and allow the multitude of thieves to scatter the sheep. If it was his job to protect the sheep and these guys would kill him if he tried to do his job, I would think, given the times they lived in, the smart thing to do would be get rid of the arms that were holding the swords that were going to kill me. He only chopped the arms off that were raised against him.

He didn't do it to glorify himself... though there were those who were in awe. . . of what he did. But God is the one giving him the strength to do what he did... he didn't give himself that strength to keep the sheep and himself safe while facing a large group of men by himself...

And he wasn't just protecting the sheep. He was protecting his men from being killed by the king... HE WAS A HERO!!! and he didn't do that to get the king to listen... he did that to safe the men and the sheep.... doing his job.....

←

Wow! You're quick to judge my friend. I'm not trying to find fault...I have testimony of the BofM's truth and am trying to find an answer to a simple question. You obviously are off the mark. But I'll humor you to this point.

You say that he was only doing his job and not being premeditated in his activities, but why then did Ammon begin to become overjoyed at the sight of his shepherding colleagues crying and wailing for fear as they were assaulted by a band of thugs?

"Alma 17:29 Now they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now when Ammon saw this his heart was swollen within him with joy; for, said he, I will show forth my power unto these my fellow-servants, or the power which is in me, in restoring these flocks unto the king, that I may win the hearts of these my fellow-servants, that I may lead them to believe in my words."

And then I revert back to my original question with this above scenario as a backdrop: Why does Alma 18:23 say that Ammon caught the King with guile? It seems such a negative word to use.

I appreciate your answer you gave originally, but it seems so stock now that I think about it. Its my opinion that Ammon was being very calculated in his actions--even the slaying and dismembering of the thieves. Sure, he was doing his job, but he wouldn't have even been in the situation if he hadn't given any forethought to what he was saying when he told the King that desired to be his "servant." I believe he was also led by the Spirit to do what he did and say what he did. He had to be "wise as serpent" in order to the King to not only listen, but also believe his words. In this sense "guile" is taken in a context of Ammon being calculated and premeditated in all of his actions. Yes, he was doing his job, but he wasn't doing it without an end or purpose in mind and this is shown by Ammon's ability to convince the King with "guile."

Personally, there probably was a better word that could be used there in the interpreting of the situation, but "guile", even with its negative connotations, aptly describes Ammon's forethought and premeditated pattern of doing things to achieve a specific end--that being the conversion of his brethren the Lamanites.

←

I once thought my Sunday school teacher was out of line for using the word analogus in any context other than art... where I had first heard it used. But I have since read hundreds of novels and they use words in a way that I wouldn't think proper, except that it gives pause and challenge to the reader to work the word in a different way than they are used to working. It requires them to stretch and grow a little in their narrow habitual thinking pattern.

I find the word perfectly positive in the context. If you are a problem solver... which my husband is a genious at, you use a different part of your brain to work things out ... I believe Ammon was just such a guy as my husband.

Yes it takes thinking to be a problem solver. I think as a mother, I have used guile to get my kids to see themselves clearly so they could work on their own problems. I have seldom been able to just come up to them and tell them what their problem is and expect them not to rebel against me, creating another problem instead of solving any.

God uses this same method with teaching his children.... He puts us in situations which clearly define our weaknesses and we have to be humbled enough to see them and work on them...

←

That's a good example. Great example in fact.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by kimballkjar+Sep 11 2005, 09:05 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 10 2005, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 10 2005, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 9 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by kimballkjar@Sep 9 2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 10:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 09:09 AM

I found this interpretation online, hope it helps.

There are two lessons to be learned here.  The first is that Ammon laid the groundwork necessary to be able to teach the gospel to King Lamoni.  It says that he “caught him with guile.”  Now I don’t interpret that to mean that he somehow tricked the King, because the scripture also says that Ammon was “wise, yet harmless.”  I think “caught him with guile”, in this context, means that he was intelligent and studied in his approach.  In other words, he knew what he was doing.  Through his example, he built line upon line and precept upon precept, until Lamoni was asking, even begging Ammon to teach him.

←

Great answer. We know that all things can either be used for good or evil purposes. Ammon used seduction/beguiling in order to bring a hard hearted person to God.

He wouldn't have responded to straight forward preaching. He needed his baser sensibilities intreated.

Knowing this, Ammon did what he knew would work for the betterment of the people he was wanting to serve.

←

Thanks. It looks as though Ammon did just about anything in order to bring these people to the "Great Spirit"--even chopping off arms and a killing people...what's a little premeditated discussion going to harm.

←

You are taking it out of context. But whatever floats your boat.

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How am I taking it of context when what you're saying seems to mean that the ends justify the means?...of course using spiritual temperance. Sure my respone evoked a the darker aspects of the Ammon's story, but really Ammon was willing to do what ever it took to "beguile" the Lamanites into listening and believing his words. Am I still off base? Anyone else have feedback?

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You took it out of the righteous context and put it into your own DARK context. YOu have not really wanted to see anything good in the BofM and all you can do is try and find fault. I find that sick and wrong.

Are you advocating that Ammon just sit there and allow the multitude of thieves to scatter the sheep. If it was his job to protect the sheep and these guys would kill him if he tried to do his job, I would think, given the times they lived in, the smart thing to do would be get rid of the arms that were holding the swords that were going to kill me. He only chopped the arms off that were raised against him.

He didn't do it to glorify himself... though there were those who were in awe. . . of what he did. But God is the one giving him the strength to do what he did... he didn't give himself that strength to keep the sheep and himself safe while facing a large group of men by himself...

And he wasn't just protecting the sheep. He was protecting his men from being killed by the king... HE WAS A HERO!!! and he didn't do that to get the king to listen... he did that to safe the men and the sheep.... doing his job.....

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Wow! You're quick to judge my friend. I'm not trying to find fault...I have testimony of the BofM's truth and am trying to find an answer to a simple question. You obviously are off the mark. But I'll humor you to this point.

You say that he was only doing his job and not being premeditated in his activities, but why then did Ammon begin to become overjoyed at the sight of his shepherding colleagues crying and wailing for fear as they were assaulted by a band of thugs?

"Alma 17:29 Now they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now when Ammon saw this his heart was swollen within him with joy; for, said he, I will show forth my power unto these my fellow-servants, or the power which is in me, in restoring these flocks unto the king, that I may win the hearts of these my fellow-servants, that I may lead them to believe in my words."

And then I revert back to my original question with this above scenario as a backdrop: Why does Alma 18:23 say that Ammon caught the King with guile? It seems such a negative word to use.

I appreciate your answer you gave originally, but it seems so stock now that I think about it. Its my opinion that Ammon was being very calculated in his actions--even the slaying and dismembering of the thieves. Sure, he was doing his job, but he wouldn't have even been in the situation if he hadn't given any forethought to what he was saying when he told the King that desired to be his "servant." I believe he was also led by the Spirit to do what he did and say what he did. He had to be "wise as serpent" in order to the King to not only listen, but also believe his words. In this sense "guile" is taken in a context of Ammon being calculated and premeditated in all of his actions. Yes, he was doing his job, but he wasn't doing it without an end or purpose in mind and this is shown by Ammon's ability to convince the King with "guile."

Personally, there probably was a better word that could be used there in the interpreting of the situation, but "guile", even with its negative connotations, aptly describes Ammon's forethought and premeditated pattern of doing things to achieve a specific end--that being the conversion of his brethren the Lamanites.

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I once thought my Sunday school teacher was out of line for using the word analogus in any context other than art... where I had first heard it used. But I have since read hundreds of novels and they use words in a way that I wouldn't think proper, except that it gives pause and challenge to the reader to work the word in a different way than they are used to working. It requires them to stretch and grow a little in their narrow habitual thinking pattern.

I find the word perfectly positive in the context. If you are a problem solver... which my husband is a genious at, you use a different part of your brain to work things out ... I believe Ammon was just such a guy as my husband.

Yes it takes thinking to be a problem solver. I think as a mother, I have used guile to get my kids to see themselves clearly so they could work on their own problems. I have seldom been able to just come up to them and tell them what their problem is and expect them not to rebel against me, creating another problem instead of solving any.

God uses this same method with teaching his children.... He puts us in situations which clearly define our weaknesses and we have to be humbled enough to see them and work on them...

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That's a good example. Great example in fact.

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Hey Thanks!