Pre-mortal existence scriptures

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Hey there,

Can you guys list scriptures that talk about or hint at life before this life? Thanks!!

[tubaloth]

Start here

Topical Guide: Preexistence

Which ends up taking you to different areas anyways. Not sure which direction you want to go with. So enjoy reading.

[livy111us]

Here is some info I found:

This is common sense. We must have had to come here in any Christians point of view.

Everyone believes our goal is to return to God, or live with Him for the first time. If there was no

pre-mortal life, God is an unjust, unloving God, or not all powerful. Why would God create us on

this earth and subject us to pain and anguish which comes along with life, and also putting us in

the situation with the possibility never being with Him, while knowing that many of His children

would be damned forever? What would be the point of creating us here? Why did He not just create

us in heaven with Him? Either He was bound by law, had not the power to create us in heaven to

begin with, or He didn’t have a complete love for us because of the chance to go to hell. It comes

down to "Why are we here?" We are the only Church that can truly answer this.

Jer. 1:5--"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the

womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Before Jeremiah was born, God knew Him and ordained him, just as he foreknew Christ and

foreordained Him (1 Peter 1:20).

The Hebrew word for "Knew" is "Yada" which is a real personal relationship only

gained through experience, seeing and hearing. In order to have any of those things before you

were born, you must be in the presence of that person or how else can you have experience with

them?

Eccl. 12:7-- "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto

God who gave it."

Man was first formed out of the dust (Gen. 2:7). When we die, the dust, or the body returns to the

earth where it originated from, and also the spirit returns, (This being the key word) to the God

who gave it. If you return to something, you had to have been there before. Some contend that it

is the Holy Spirit that will return to God, but that is ridiculous because it is speaking of the spirit

and body of man combined, which causes him to live (James 2:26). And the separation of the

two, and the destination of both the spirit and body. The body goes into the ground from whence

it came, and the spirit of man returns to God who gave it. Although most Christians don’t even

believe that the Holy Ghost was on the earth until after Christ died (See John 14:26), they still

argue that. This idea is also ridiculous. Acts 1:16, 2 Peter 1:21, Exodus 31:3, Numbers 11:25, 1

Sam. 16:14, Psalms 51:11, and Isaiah 63:10 all testify that Prophets have spoken by the Holy

Ghost, and the Holy Ghost was upon them. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He

would not be partial for 4,000 years, then decide to reveal another member of the Godhead. The

reason why the Father would send them the Holy Ghost after the death of Christ is simply

because He was not needed. A member of the Godhead was in their presence.

Our bodies are formed from the dust of the earth, but are our spirits made from the same

materials? If they were, then they would, at death, return to the dust; but as they are not reduced

to dust, like the body, they must be formed of materials far superior to those of the earth.

John 9:2--You must look at this one closely. In verse 2 the disciples ask Our church has the answer. In the pre-existence,

we all, as spirits, lived with our Father. We grew and progressed until there came a point where

we needed bodies to progress further. A plan was presented and two different spirits in authority

came forth to be a Savior. One agreed with the Fathers plan and would follow it. The other

wanted to change it so that all the people would have to do good, eliminating the need of a

suffering Savior that would be put to death. It would have been a lot easier for satan if he was

chosen. God chose the first (Abr. 3:27-28). There was a rebellion in heaven and satan, along with

a third of the hosts of heaven were cast down to earth without bodies (Rev. 12:7-9, Isa. 14:12,

Luke 10:18) by Michael and his angels.

Our deeds in the pre-existence reflect some circumstances in this life, just as this life

reflects all circumstances in the next. Circumstances in the nest life. Rom. 9:10-14 says that

before they were born, God said "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Why? Is it because

God is impartial? No. It is because of their deeds in the Pre-existence. As Bruce R. McConkie

puts it "As far as the works of this life are concerned, (neither) had earned any preferential

status...Jacob was coming into the world with greater spiritual capacity than Esau..." He goes on

to say "The House of Israel was a distinct people in the pre-existence; that is, by obedience and

devotion, certain of the spirit children of the Father earned the right to be born in the lineage of

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of being natural heirs to the blessings of the Gospel. Through the

lineage of Jacob, God sent those valiant spirits, those noble and great ones, who He knew would

be inclined to serve Him. Through Esau came those spirits of lesser valiance and devotion.

Hence, in the very nature of things, many of Jacobs seed were righteous in this life, and many of

Esaus were wicked, causing Malachi to say in the Lords name, fifteen hundred years later, that

God loved the house of Jacob and hated the house of Esau." Mal 1:2-3 (See also Alma 13:1-5)

Back to John 9:2, some say that the Jews believed sin was passed down from father to

son, but this is not Jewish theology, Ezekiel 18:20 says that the son will not bear the iniquities of

his parents.

Gen. 2:7--This is when God "Breathed into his nostrils the breath (Hebrew= ‘Rucha’ or spirit) of

life; and man became a living soul." God breathed the spirit into Adam. He did not create it right

then. He placed it there. It was in the pre-existence, where God took it from and put it into his

body. The spirit was brought down from heaven and after Adams life ended, it returned to Gods

presence. (See Eccl. 12:7)

Heb. 12:9, Num. 16:22, 27:16--This tells us that God is the Father of our spirits. Yet, most

Christians believe that we come into existence, both spirit and body, when we are born. It doesn’t

say God created our spirit and body, but just spirit. If we are a bodiless spirit, then our spirits

must be somewhere.

Jude 1:6--Jude, the brother of Jesus and James, is giving 3 examples of rebellion. 1st, the

children of Israel whom He delivered out of Egypt, and later killed all the original members of

the exodus, save Joshua, and Caleb, by making them wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Then

in verse 7, he speaks of the rebellion of Sodom and Gomorrha that sinned. And finally, he speaks of

the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers. After the rebellion, or sin, there had to come a

punishment, which was the loss of their first estate, and their being cast to earth. So who were the

other 2/3 of the angels that fought against satan? They were us in the pre-mortal life. 1 Cor. 6:2 says

that we shall judge the world, and the next verse says that we shall judge angels. Angels, in the

Christian point of view are perfect beings. So why should we judge them, unless we were them at

one time?

　

John 1:15-- "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The scholar David Waltz writes: "The phrase for He was before me (NAS for He existed before me) is not a literal translation of the Greek which reads: hoti prOtos mou En. A literal, word for word translation is: "because first of me was". Virtually all English translations read the adjective prOtos in a sense of time, hence the "before"; however, I believe a more natural reading of the Greek is to translate prOtos as a substantive, "first/chief [one]", and if one adopts this view the phrase would read: "because He was my first/chief [one]". Once again, this seems to me to be the more natural, straightforward, translation; but if one follows this translation it would mean that John the Baptist was preexistent just like Jesus, and in the preexistence, Jesus was Johns superior, or Chief.

But am I all wet in translating prOtos as first/chief? Not according to one NT scholar who wrote:

hoti prOtos mou En This is a Johannine addition to the Synoptic proclamation of the Baptist. It has been rendered in two different ways, (a) To render prOtos mou as "my Chief, my Superior" is defensible(J.H. Bernard, The International Critical Commentary " St. John, vol. 1, p. 28.

Titus 1:2-- "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world

began;"

How can we be promised something before the world began if we didn’t exist then?

Rom. 8:29--"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image

of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

To foreknow means to know before, and in order to foreordain which would happen before this

life, there would have to be a pre-existence.

Eph. 1:4-5-- "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we

should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the

adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

We were chosen before the foundation of the world, just as Christ was "Slain before the

foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8), so were we chosen and ordained to do certain duties and

tasks. But some will fall and not complete it, in which God will plant another in his stead. D/C

35:18. We had to have existed in order to be chosen.

Gen. 2:5-- "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,

in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field

before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had

not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."

If plants were created even before the earth was and every herb before the world was formed,

why didn’t God create us before?

2 Tim. 1:9--Called us with a holy calling before the world began (Foreordination see also Acts

17:26)

[livy111us]

Job 38:4-7--This is when the "sons of God shouted for joy" before the earth was made. Hosea

1:10 says we are the sons of God. Therefore, we were around before this life

Proverbs 8:23-30– "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding

with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as

yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the

depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when

he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and

I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his

earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

Although these verses are metaphorically spoken by "wisdom...and understanding"

(verses 1, 12, 14), these proverbs are generally attributed to Solomon (Proverbs 1:1; 10:1; 25:1).

The writer of Proverbs 8 is not specifically identified as Solomon but it appears that these verses

are about the pre-existent Solomon himself. Solomon’s wisdom and knowledge were revered in

scripture (1 Kings 4:29, 34, 5:12; 10:23; 24; 11:41, 2 Chronicles 1:11; 9:3, 22-23; Mat. 12:42;

Luke 11:31) and there is even an apocryphal writing entitled Wisdom of Solomon. It seems likely

to me that these verses were therefore speaking metaphorically about Solomon in the pre-existence.

In the Apocryphal text called ‘The Wisdom of Solomon (8.19-20), which was included in

almost every Christian Bible up through the seventeenth century, King Solomon is reported to

have said that because he was "Noble" in premortal times he "Entered an undefiled body". If you

enter something, you must be in a previous state before.

According to James Hastings ‘A Dictionary of the Bible’ 4:63, the doctrine of the

premortal life among the ancient Jews since "in the Talmud and Midrash, pre-existence is

constantly taught"

In the Clementine Recognitions 1:28, the apostle Peter is represented as saying that "the

earth was created for man but the spirit of man is older than the earth". And also "The world has

existed through the ages so that the spirits destined to come here might fulfill their number and

destiny and here make their choice between the upper and lower worlds both of which are

represented here so that when the bodies the righteous are resurrected they might go to eternal

light.(Clementine Recognitions III:1)

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) who was one of the most important theologians

and scholars of his time, wrote in his book ‘De Principiis 4.1.23’, that "everyone, accordingly, of

those who descend to the earth is, according to his deserts, or agreeably to the position which he

occupied there (premortal state), ordained to be born in this world, in a different country, or

among a different nation, or in a different mode of life, or surrounded by infirmities of a different

kind, or to be descended from religious parents, or parents who are not religious."

"And everything which is found in this world has been before, and has passed before him

and has been arranged [organized] before Him . . . all the creations of the world which have

existed in each generation, before they came into this world, have existed before Him in their

true form, even all the souls of the children of man have been before they came down to the

world, have all been formed before Him in heaven in the very likeness that they have in this

world." (the Jewish Zohar III:61)

In Mathetes epistle to Diognetus, he wrote "They [Christians] live on earth, but their

citizenship is in Heaven . . . . As the soul lives in the body, yet does not have its origin in the body so

the Christians live in the world yet are not of the world . . . . Immortal, the soul lives in a mortal

house; so too the Christians live in corruptible existence as strangers and look forward to

incorruptible life in Heaven." (The Early Christians After the Death of the Apostles, pg. 109-110)

"When an ancient spirit is about to come down . . . to that region which they call the

kingdom of Adam, that Archon who is at the head of the place gives the preexistent soul a cup of

forgetfulness..."(Pistis Sophia)

"For the world exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...

There are many mansions, regions, spaces, heavens degrees, and worlds and they all have but one

law. If you keep. that law you too can become a creator of worlds....

Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world knew that he could not save himself. So he

called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon, the holy

and perfect name, that be was able to establish the plan of life in the new world." ( 2 Coptic

Gnostic Work)

"that the man first so named existed before the man who was made, and that he who was

formed of the earth was afterwards made according to the pre-existent form." (Ante-Nicene

Fathers 1:286, chap. 30 Hortatory Address to the Greeks)

Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you shall find the

Kingdom; because you come from it, (and) you shall go there again." (The Gospel According to

Thomas [1959] pg. 29)

Augustine taught that "creationism, traducianism, and two variants on the

soul as pre-existent: either it was divinely 'sent' or it sinfully 'fell' into the body." (The Origin of the

Soul in St. Augustine’s Later Works, pg. 11, O’Connell)

The Apocalypse of Abraham reads "And everything I had planned to be came into being: it

was already pre-figured in this, for all the things and all the people you have seen stood before me

before they were created. And I said, Mighty and Eternal Ruler, who then are the people in this

picture on this side and on that? And he said to me, Those on the left side are the many peoples

which have existed in the past, and after you are appointed, some for judgement and restoration,

som for vengeance and perdition, until the end of the age. And those on the right side of the picture,

they are the people set apart for me from the people with Azazil [satan]. These are the people who

are going to spring from you and will be called my people." (The Apocalypse of Abraham 22, The

Apocryphal Old Testament, pg. 384) This reads very similar to what Joseph Smith translated in

Abraham 3!

The Midrash Kee Tov states that all the souls of the righteous, including Adam, Noah,

Abraham, Moses, etc. "were with God before the creation of the world." ( Sefer Haparshiyot,

Midrash Kee Tov, "Alef" Machon Lehotzaat Sefarim, 31, quoted in Nissim Wernick, "A Critical

Analysis of the Book of Abraham in the Light of Extra-Canonical Jewish Writings" (Ph.D. diss.,

Brigham Young University, 1968), 22)

This same dissertation also records the events of a consultation between God and the souls of

the righteous before the world was created. (1 Enoch 39:4-7, 40:5, 61:12, and Ibid. pg. 23)

Origen quoted a Jewish apocryphal document called the Prayer of Joseph, which asserted

that Jacob was one of the archangels in his premortal existence: "Thus Jacob says: "I, Jacob, who

speak to you, arid Israel, I am an angel of God, a ruling spirit, and Abraham and Isaac were created

before every work of God." (Origin Commentary on John 2:25, Ante-Nicene Fathers 10:341)

2 Enoch, which was considered as scripture by early Christians (also quoted Jude 1:14) says

"all souls are prepared to eternity, before the formation of the world," (Secrets of Enoch 23:2)

It goes on to say "And I placed on the earth, a second angel, honorable, great and glorious,

and I appointed him as ruler to rule on earth and to have my wisdom, and there was none like him of

earth of all my existing creatures . . . . I called his name Adam." (Secrets of Enoch 30:12-13,

Forgotten Books of Eden, pg. 92)

　

"The Talmud teaches the pre-existance of souls. 'In the seventh heaven, Araboth, are stored the spirits and souls which have still to be created' (Chag. 12b), i.e. the unborn souls which have still to be united with bodies. There was a common belief that the Messianic era will not dawn until all these unborn souls have had their term of existance on earth" (78). Direct quote from Everyman's Talmud, Abraham Cohen.

"R. Simai used to say, 'Both the soul and body of creatures created from heaven are from heaven. Both the soul and body of creatures created from earth are from earth, except for man, whose soul is from heaven and body is from earth. Therefore if a man fulfills Torah and the desire of his Father in heaven he is like the heavenly creatures as it says, 'I said 'You are gods and sons of the most high all of you' (Ps. 82:6)." Sifre Devarim 306