Verse 4-8

[Guest Member_Deleted]

4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

Can't an evil man do good works? Like a guy who owns cacinos... and has bad people killed who doesn't pay up.... what if he gives to charities for sink children?

Is it only a good thing if it gives him brownie points for heaven?

[Serg]

To our(human) point of view , a man who kills but gives charity to children, would still be good(only in that he gave to children) but would still be evil(in that in which he killed), but again, those verses are not talking about good or evil from OUR perspective but FOR our perspective. I mean. It is said that an evil man "cannot" do good works, but ...of course he can(in the human sense), i mean he can actually kill somebody(bad thing) and write a check for hungry children(good thing), but the meaning of that verse is not that literal, but that the killer(in this example) CANNOT do good works, BECAUSE he does not feel the intention of it. I order to REALLY(from Gods perspective) do a good deed, you HAVE to feel it, and this "do one"is more like a "be recognize by God as one". If people do it and here enters our killer) without wanting or feeling the love of Christ, it shall be taken as if it was never done at all. And no, we DO NOT do good deeds to make "points"in Heaven, for if it would be so at all, what is the minimum score to be saved? Well thats not our doctrine, yes those deeds ought to be considered as accumulative but not to win...but it shows that your commitment with God is real. It does not mean a score but proof of change, you don't do works to be saved(for only through grace we are) but to show to the Lord how we keep our covenant with a real change of heart. This doesn't mean that good deeds now are not so important, of course they are, for if it no be by works, how would i know the path to follow? For as Jesus did all the works for us, we ought to be in his works as well, for the one who sanctifies and the sactified, from one are all. We ought to make our hardest effort(within our particular capacity) to be worthy of the grace of God, because any ways, who of all the children of men can or could ever gain heaven on their own? No one, for if it would have been so, in vain died Jesus, BUT the only WAY to recognize the change of heart of a person is to watch their fruits as John said. And at the end, when all the children of men stand before the presence of the Lord, according to their works will they be rewarded, not as a game score but as a way to see the validity of their conversion,lets say , its like the hidden security line in a dollar, it lets us know if its for real and so you can buy with it, or if it was for fraud... So its fair to say, that only those deeds that come from heart "count", but those which are to buy heaven do not. For if a person gives away his money with rancor, should be just to count it as a deed within those who really gave it and loved the Lord? No , the gospel does not teach that.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 18 2005, 02:52 PM

To our(human) point of view , a man who kills but gives charity to children, would still be good(only in that he gave to children) but would still be evil(in that in which he killed), but again, those verses are not talking about good or evil from OUR perspective but FOR our perspective. I mean. It is said that an evil man "cannot" do good works, but ...of course he can(in the human sense), i mean he can actually kill somebody(bad thing) and write a check for hungry children(good thing), but the meaning of that verse is not that literal, but that the killer(in this example) CANNOT do good works, BECAUSE he does not feel the intention of it. I order to REALLY(from Gods perspective) do a good deed, you HAVE to feel it, and this "do one"is more like a "be recognize by God as one". If people do it and here enters our killer) without wanting or feeling the love of Christ, it shall be taken as if it was never done at all.  And no, we DO NOT do good deeds to make "points"in Heaven, for if it would be so at all, what is the minimum score to be saved? Well thats not our doctrine, yes those deeds ought to be considered as accumulative but not to win...but it shows that your commitment with God is real. It does not mean a score but proof of change, you don't do works to be saved(for only through grace we are) but to show to the Lord how we keep our covenant with a real change of heart. This doesn't mean that good deeds now are not so important, of course they are, for if it no be by works, how would i know the path to follow? For as Jesus did all the works for us, we ought to be in his works as well, for the one who sanctifies and the sactified, from one are all. We ought to make our hardest effort(within our particular capacity) to be worthy of the grace of God, because any ways, who of all the children of men can or could ever gain heaven on their own? No one, for if it would have been so, in vain died Jesus, BUT the only WAY to recognize the change of heart of a person is to watch their fruits as John said. And at the end, when all the children of men stand before the presence of the Lord, according to their works will they be rewarded, not as a game score but as a way to see the validity of their conversion,lets say , its like the hidden security line in a dollar, it lets us know if its for real and so you can buy with it, or if it was for fraud... So its fair to say, that only those deeds that come from heart "count", but those which are to buy heaven do not. For if a person gives away his money with rancor, should be just to count it as a deed within those who really gave it and loved the Lord? No , the gospel does not teach that.

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Then basically it is not the physical action which makes it a good deed or evil deed... it is the 'heart' or lack of it with which he does the act?

Would this then explain why killing Laban was not an evil act by Nephi?

[Serg]

Yes it explains it, AS FAR AS TO NEPHI IS CONCERNED. He had not the impulse nor the heart for it, the Spirit persuaded him to do it. Now as to why did God do it, well we can speculate and end with the same explanations everybody has, "it was for a greater good",yada yada... But though that could be the reason the question remains: How could God do so? Well , He is the giver of the LAW, He knows when to make exceptions and only He knows whats better for men. For example: we consider wrong the death penalty, but the Lord sometimes requires it. WHY? Cause Jesus didnt pay for that one. You ought to sacrifice your life. If Jesus would have paid for it, he would have remain away from the exaltation, and that CANT happen. So he paid for all that which can be forgiven within the rules of exaltation. Thats why he didnt pay for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and all that commit it are condemn eternally.

Ethical questions for an ethical God...He knows all and thats very sufficient to me.LOL

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 19 2005, 12:53 PM

Yes it explains it, AS FAR AS TO NEPHI IS CONCERNED. He had not the impulse nor the heart for it, the Spirit persuaded him to do it. Now as to why did God do it, well we can speculate and end with the same explanations everybody has, "it was for a greater good",yada yada... But though that could be the reason the question remains: How could God do so? Well , He is the giver of the LAW, He knows when to make exceptions and only He knows whats better for men. For example: we consider wrong the death penalty, but the Lord sometimes requires it. WHY? Cause Jesus didnt pay for that one. You ought to sacrifice your life. If Jesus would have paid for it, he would have remain away from the exaltation, and that CANT happen. So he paid for all that which can be forgiven within the rules of exaltation. Thats why he didnt pay for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and all that commit it are condemn eternally.

            Ethical questions for an ethical God...He knows all and thats very sufficient to me.LOL

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Thank you... you have some really good insightful thoughts here...

[Serg]

I hope God helps us every day to learn and live that which we learn....

We really know nothing....and if as brethren we can help each other , so be it.

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If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.(Psalms 130:3)