What's The Point Of Sealing.

[Jason]

Ray asked me to start a new thread. I stated that there's no point in having a nuclear family unit in heaven. Ray then felt that I didn't understand what the LDS doctrine was on this correctly.

I then posed the question, will people be able to visit/see others that they are not sealed too?

Ray repled:

  Yes, we will still be able to see someone who is not sealed to us (or who does not accept the sealing ordinance which was performed on their behalf), but we might have to go to them if they can't come to us, if we live in a higher kingdom.

Or in other words, those who are up can go down, but those who are down can’t go up.

I should have been more clear. Im talking about the Celestial Kindgom. Im also talking about people who fulfilled all the rules of Mormonism and are now exalted beings in the highest degree of the Celestial Kindgom.

Now with that understanding, and knowing that one Celestialite will be able to see and visit with other Celestialites, what exactly is the need of being sealed to anyone besides your spouse(s)? (Which I assume is only necesary in and of itself for the purposes of intimate sexual encounters to create "spirit" babies. No fornication in heaven mind you...)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 18 2005, 03:14 PM

Ray asked me to start a new thread.  I stated that there's no point in having a nuclear family unit in heaven.  Ray then felt that I didn't understand what the LDS doctrine was on this correctly.

I then posed the question, will people be able to visit/see others that they are not sealed too? 

Ray repled:

  Yes, we will still be able to see someone who is not sealed to us (or who does not accept the sealing ordinance which was performed on their behalf), but we might have to go to them if they can't come to us, if we live in a higher kingdom.

Or in other words, those who are up can go down, but those who are down can’t go up.

I should have been more clear. Im talking about the Celestial Kindgom. Im also talking about people who fulfilled all the rules of Mormonism and are now exalted beings in the highest degree of the Celestial Kindgom.

Now with that understanding, and knowing that one Celestialite will be able to see and visit with other Celestialites, what exactly is the need of being sealed to anyone besides your spouse(s)? (Which I assume is only necesary in and of itself for the purposes of intimate sexual encounters to create "spirit" babies. No fornication in heaven mind you...)

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One can't be in the Celestial kingdom without being sealed to someone.

[BenRaines]

You can be in the Celestial Kingdom and not be sealed to anyone. Once you have received the endowment and if you endure to the end you will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

Per Jason's question of highest degree of Celestial Kingdom it is only those who ave been sealed in the everlasting covenant of marriage, temple marriage or sealing, that will attain the highest degree. Again with the same requirement to endure to the end.

As I have posted earlier the sealing as a family has to do with Patriarchal order of things but the most important sealing is not children to parents but husbands to wives or husband to wives but that is a differnt forum. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 03:30 PM

You can be in the Celestial Kingdom and not be sealed to anyone.  Once you have received the endowment and if you endure to the end you will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

Per Jason's question of highest degree of Celestial Kingdom it is only those who ave been sealed in the everlasting covenant of marriage, temple marriage or sealing, that will attain the highest degree.  Again with the same requirement to endure to the end.

As I have posted earlier the sealing as a family has to do with Patriarchal order of things but the most important sealing is not children to parents but husbands to wives or husband to wives but that is a differnt forum.  :)

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YOu just contradicted yourself... first you said you don't have to be sealed to be in the CK... then you add that you have to receive an endowment and endure to the end... to inherit it... can't be both ways... think about it...

Even if you are a single man who was the first to join the church, and never married... you will do your parents work and the work for your ancentors... being sealed to them...or all the earth will be wasted at His coming....

And another thing.... all sealings are of equal value.... if you understand why you are being sealed.

[BenRaines]

I don't think it is a contradiction. My children are endowed. Two married in the temple and two who have not married yet but served missions and went to the temple before their missions. The two that are endowed and not married or sealed to anyone would be eligible to enter the Celestial Kingdom without marrying or without being sealed to someone later.

Requirement is to be endowed to enter Celestial Kingdom not sealed.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 03:40 PM

I don't think it is a contradiction.  My children are endowed.  Two married in the temple and two who have not married yet but served missions and went to the temple before their missions.  The two that are endowed and not married or sealed to anyone would be eligible to enter the Celestial Kingdom without marrying or without being sealed to someone later.

Requirement is to be endowed to enter Celestial Kingdom not sealed.

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Are they sealed to you?

[BenRaines]

Of course but that is not a prerequisite to enter the Celestial Kingdom. A single person. Never married but endowed, no other members of their family a member of the church but endowed if they remain true and faithful and endure to the end will have met the requirements to end the Celestial Kindgom.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 03:50 PM

Of course but that is not a prerequisite to enter the Celestial Kingdom.  A single person.  Never married but endowed, no other members of their family a member of the church but endowed if they remain true and faithful and endure to the end will have met the requirements to end the Celestial Kindgom.

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Yes it is... you don't understand the statement of ... the earth would be wasted at his coming....

part of being true and faithful is having all your ancestors sealed to you...

[BenRaines]

Please share with me to enlighten me the purpose of this whole sealing of mankind. To be endowed I have no doubt. Requirement to be sealed I have never read nor taught in all my years in the church as a requirement to enter the Celestial kingdom.

[BenRaines]

Regarding the endowment.

Brigham Young said of it, ‘Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.’ ” (Journal of Discourses, 2:31.)

Looks like we can take that walk without being sealed to anyone, just endowed.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 03:56 PM

Please share with me to enlighten me the purpose of this whole sealing of mankind.  To be endowed I have no doubt.  Requirement to be sealed I have never read nor taught in all my years in the church as a requirement to enter the Celestial kingdom.

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Well I guess I will have to educate you... It will take a little time... but I will go in search of documentation...

[Jason]

D&C 131 and 132 are what you're looking for.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 03:56 PM

Please share with me to enlighten me the purpose of this whole sealing of mankind.  To be endowed I have no doubt.  Requirement to be sealed I have never read nor taught in all my years in the church as a requirement to enter the Celestial kingdom.

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Nor I...

[Ray]

Before I go on, I think I should first state that I’m not required to help you understand this issue, and I’m also not required to convince you that I know the truth concerning this issue. And whether you know it or not, I am capable of knowing the truth of this issue without your approval or understanding.

I will also state that none of us needs to know all of the reasons why our Lord wants us to receive the sealing ordinances which bind us together, just as we also do not need to know all the purposes or consequences that will result if we do, or do not, receive the sealing ordinances which bind us together.

Or in other words, it should be sufficient enough to simply know whether or not our Lord has required us to be sealed, and having faith that He has, to then have faith that He has His good reasons, and just do it.

Now with that having been said, I will now state that I know one of the reasons we need to be sealed to our family members is so we can preserve our relationships as they have been established here on this Earth. Or in other words, if we do not bind our relationships as they are now on this Earth, in heaven, our wives will no longer be our wives, our husbands will no longer be our husbands, and our children will no longer be our children. Or in other words, we would all be as we were in heaven before we came to this Earth, without wives and without husbands and without children, simply as brothers and sisters.

And there would then be no way for us to take someone as our wife, or our husband, or to have any children of our own, because those relationships must be sealed on this Earth in the method our Lord has established for binding us together, or else we will remain as we were without them, with no special relationships of any kind setting us apart and binding us into units which can and should work together.

I can also see a lot of advantages to having units of people working together to help each other come into one great whole. For instance, fathers and mothers can and should continue to receive counsel and support from their fathers and mothers, passing that counsel and support on to their children, who would then become fathers and mothers to their children. Without these bonds which hold us together, in heaven, we would all be one big mass of people, perhaps trying to form ourselves into some sort of organization to help us all work together, perhaps choosing “captains” or “group leaders” not necessarily associated with anyone who came from our "family" lines, avoiding or missing out on the benefits that come simply from being a part of a "family".

And btw, while I know there are some other forms of association which can help us work toward some purposes together, I personally believe the best way is to associate with people who spend most of their lives trying to love us and support us and help us become the best people they know how to help us to be.

Families. Can you really imagine living without yours?

[BenRaines]

Jason you are right that the 131 section of the Doctrine and Covenants says that to obtain the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom you must enter in to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage. I do not read either there or in the 132 section that it is necessary to enter in the to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

This is the state of those who do not enter in to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage when they are in the Celestial Kingdom

D&C 132 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

That is my limited understanding.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

You guys can't tell me you have never been taught this scripture...

D&C 138: 48

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

Maybe you just haven't understood the BIG picture.

[BenRaines]

Please and in that scripture you read that if you are not sealed to a spouse that you are not eligible to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom.

Yes it is very important that we do our temple work and the work for those that have gone on before us. To turn the hearts of the children to the parents but there is no where in there that I read that if we are not sealed we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Can't do the sealing until the endowment is done.

Temple work for the dead is as important as our own. Baptism, Holy Ghost, for men Priesthood and then endowment. If you wish to attain the highest degree of the Celestial Kindgom it requires the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Please@Nov 18 2005, 04:18 PM

Maybe you just haven't understood the BIG picture.

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Then neither did Bruce R. McConkie. From Mormon Doctrine:

Celestial Kingdom

Highest among the kingdoms of glory hereafter is the celestial kingdom. It is the kingdom of God, the glory thereof being typified by the sun in the firmament. (D. & C. 76:50-70, 92-96; 1 Cor. 15:39-42.) The Prophet has left us this record of a glorious occurrence that took place in the Kirtland Temple on January 21, 1836: "The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold." (Teachings, p. 107.)An inheritance in this glorious kingdom is gained by complete obedience to gospel or celestial law. (D. & C. 88:16-32.) By entering the gate of repentance and baptism candidates find themselves on the strait and narrow path leading to the celestial kingdom. By devotion and faithfulness, by enduring to the end in righteousness and obedience, it is then possible to merit a celestial reward. (2 Ne. 31:17-21.)No unclean thing can enter this kingdom, and the plan of salvation is the system whereby men are washed and cleansed, whereby they are "sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost," and thus enabled to stand spotless before the Lord. (3 Ne. 27:19-21.) "The sanctified" are "them of the celestial world." (D. & C. 88:2.)"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees," and in the same sense that baptism starts a person out toward an entrance into the celestial world, so celestial marriage puts a couple on the path leading to an exaltation in the highest heaven of that world. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Outshined+Nov 18 2005, 04:31 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Nov 18 2005, 04:18 PM

Maybe you just haven't understood the BIG picture.

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Then neither did Bruce R. McConkie. From Mormon Doctrine:

Celestial Kingdom

Highest among the kingdoms of glory hereafter is the celestial kingdom. It is the kingdom of God, the glory thereof being typified by the sun in the firmament. (D. & C. 76:50-70, 92-96; 1 Cor. 15:39-42.) The Prophet has left us this record of a glorious occurrence that took place in the Kirtland Temple on January 21, 1836: "The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold." (Teachings, p. 107.)An inheritance in this glorious kingdom is gained by complete obedience to gospel or celestial law. (D. & C. 88:16-32.) By entering the gate of repentance and baptism candidates find themselves on the strait and narrow path leading to the celestial kingdom. By devotion and faithfulness, by enduring to the end in righteousness and obedience, it is then possible to merit a celestial reward. (2 Ne. 31:17-21.)No unclean thing can enter this kingdom, and the plan of salvation is the system whereby men are washed and cleansed, whereby they are "sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost," and thus enabled to stand spotless before the Lord. (3 Ne. 27:19-21.) "The sanctified" are "them of the celestial world." (D. & C. 88:2.)"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees," and in the same sense that baptism starts a person out toward an entrance into the celestial world, so celestial marriage puts a couple on the path leading to an exaltation in the highest heaven of that world. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

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I'm afraid I am way not a BRM fan... in fact I don't think anything he did until he knew he was going to die... was of much value...

I know his story better than you might think... and have valid reasons for my feelings..

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2005, 04:08 PM

Now with that having been said, I will now state that I know one of the reasons we need to be sealed to our family members is so we can preserve our relationships as they have been established here on this Earth.  Or in other words, if we do not bind our relationships as they are now on this Earth, in heaven, our wives will no longer be our wives, our husbands will no longer be our husbands, and our children will no longer be our children.  Or in other words, we would all be as we were in heaven before we came to this Earth, without wives and without husbands and without children, simply as brothers and sisters.

First, thank you Ray for your response. This is where I was going with my first initial post on the subject.

Now, to this part of your reply, let me ask you, is it not possible to create worlds without being sealed to someone? I've heard endless speculation that the children of god may have assisted in the creation of this earth.

If that speculation is correct, then we've eliminated one reason for being sealed vs just receiving exaltation in the CK.

And there would then be no way for us to take someone as our wife, or our husband, or to have any children of our own, because those relationships must be sealed on this Earth in the method our Lord has established for binding us together, or else we will remain as we were without them, with no special relationships of any kind setting us apart and binding us into units which can and should work together.

Now I realize that your god stated very clearly that only those who are sealed on earth will be married in heaven. But I think it's a contradiction of omnipotency to say that there is "no way" for us to get married in heaven. If your god willed it so, would it not be so?

I can also see a lot of advantages to having units of people working together to help each other come into one great whole.  For instance, fathers and mothers can and should continue to receive counsel and support from their fathers and mothers, passing that counsel and support on to their children, who would then become fathers and mothers to their children.  Without these bonds which hold us together, in heaven, we would all be one big mass of people, perhaps trying to form ourselves into some sort of organization to help us all work together, perhaps choosing “captains” or “group leaders” not necessarily associated with anyone who came from our "family" lines, avoiding or missing out on the benefits that come simply from being a part of a "family".

Ok, so for many of us, our families were never the best supporters in our lives. Many times it has been someone else who gave us the support we needed.

Perhaps that would be justification enough to go back to the pre-1891 sealing method of sealing yourself to a higher priesthood authority, instead of your ancestors?

And btw, while I know there are some other forms of association which can help us work toward some purposes together, I personally believe the best way is to associate with people who spend most of their lives trying to love us and support us and help us become the best people they know how to help us to be.

So this is basically the only real justification for being sealed to your children? I just want to make sure that we're clear on this. Because honestly, I don't see it as a very good or vaild reason. We are (according or LDS doctrine) all the children of your god. Therefore, we are already brothers and sisters eternally speaking. Therefore, would not the association of the "righteous" brothers and sisters in the highest degree of the CK be those best to associate with? And would not their advice and imput be the best for us to advance spiritually and endlessly as gods and goddesses?

I hope I'm making myself clear here.

[Outshined]

I'm afraid I am way not a BRM fan

That doesn't change the truth of that post. Sealing is essential to the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom, not the Celestial Kingdom itself. That's what I was always taught.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

There will be a thousand years for all those who need to get married to do so... there is no need for God to have marriages happening in heaven... it is not where the work is to be done... Heaven is the 'resting' place... and the progressive becoming place...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

I have a question: what would the entire earth being wasted mean to the celestial kingdom...

[BenRaines]

My understanding is that there will be 1,000 years to get lots of work done. Baptisms for the dead, endowments and sealings.

Again I am not aware of anywhere that it is taught that in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom you must be sealed to someone or to a family.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 04:50 PM

My understanding is that there will be 1,000 years to get lots of work done.  Baptisms for the dead, endowments and sealings.

Again I am not aware of anywhere that it is taught that in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom you must be sealed to someone or to a family.

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You're right; see the quote from Mormon Doctrine...