What's The Point Of Sealing.

[Jason]

Ray,

We're getting sidetracked here. I want to know what relationship could possibly be greater than that which existed before birth? Specifically, I want to know how giving birth to a moral body is somehow a more important relationship than the spiritual relationship we all shared before birth?

What greater honor than to say we are children of God? How is including the minor relationships (relatively and compartively speaking) we shared on earth going to compare?

Consider the following claims:

#1. I am a child of God.

#2. And Im also the son of Bill.

When looked at from this perspective, I fail to see how #2 could possibly compare to the greatness of #1. When discussing this in the CK, who's really going to give a crap who was your earthly daddy?

[Jason]

A bump for those interested in answers...

[Ray]

It's not a question of it being a greater honor, Jason.

It's a question of whether or not you will honor all of your mothers and fathers by continuing your relationships with them as their son, both now and forever, by growing or at least trying to grow closer to them in your relationships with them throughout eternity.

Or in other words, the idea that you would want to "skip" over any or all of your other mothers and fathers by relating only with our Eternal Father shows your lack of love and honor for those parents without whom you would not be living on this Earth.

Or in other words, our Eternal Father is not the only father who made you who and what you are, because you are also a product of all of the many, many, many other fathers and mothers you have had since Adam and Eve, including Adam and Eve, so why would you only want to honor Him when you have so many other fathers and mothers to honor?

And btw, for a smart guy like you, this probably would have been a no-brainer, if you had simply given the matter some more thought.

[Jason]

My friend Ray,

In your quest to justify the LDS practice of sealing, you seem to have placed yourself right smack in between the proverbial rock and a hard place. May I remind you that there is no glory short of that given to the Father. Jesus taught his disciples to pray the Lords Prayer in such a manner that there was no question to whom all honor and glory belong:

Our Father who art in Heaven...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (St. Matthew 6)

As for family reltionships and giving honor to earthly ancestors, I believe you've again forgotten how unimportant these things are in the grand scheme of things. I share the same opinion as Jesus with the following quote:

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (St. Matthew 12)

In the Celestial Kingdom, we will not care for our earthly relationships. At least, that's what Jesus taught.

[Ray]

You do err by not knowing all of the scriptures.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. – Mark 10:19

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name… – Malachi 1:6

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. – John 12:26

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: - 1 Peter 1:7

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. – John 5:22-23

For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. – D&C 76:5-6

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. – Revelation 3:21

And yes, Jason, there are many more scriptures I could quote to show you that those who honor Jesus Christ will also be honored by Him, while those who do not honor Him will never know the joy that would have been theirs if they had only been faithful to Him.

[Jason]

Ray,

Im sorry, but other than the "honor your father and mother" which deals with actions in this world alone, the rest of that has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

[Ray]

God never said that we are to honor our fathers and mothers only in this world alone, and whether you know it or not, sealings are all about preserving and honoring our relationships with them forever.

[Guest sugarbay]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 29 2005, 04:22 PM

You do err by not knowing all of the scriptures.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. – Mark 10:19

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name… – Malachi 1:6

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. – John 12:26

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: - 1 Peter 1:7

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. – John 5:22-23

For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. – D&C 76:5-6

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. – Revelation 3:21

And yes, Jason, there are many more scriptures I could quote to show you that those who honor Jesus Christ will also be honored by Him, while those who do not honor Him will never know the joy that would have been theirs if they had only been faithful to Him.

←

To simplify things, a house divided cannot stand.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 29 2005, 05:15 PM

God never said that we are to honor our fathers and mothers only in this world alone...

Ok, but the absense of evidence for your argument does not invalidate my argument.

[Jason]

Originally posted by sugarbay@Nov 29 2005, 05:18 PM

To simplify things, a house divided cannot stand.

←

Welcome to the discussion sugarbay. I'd really like it if you could explain to me how this comment applies to our discussion. Specifically, how is a house divided if all are under the same roof (that being children of god)?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 29 2005, 04:55 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 29 2005, 05:15 PM

God never said that we are to honor our fathers and mothers only in this world alone...

Ok, but the absense of evidence for your argument does not invalidate my argument.

←

which argument?

... about how you don't see any point to parents being sealed to their children, and children being sealed to their parents?

Heh, you just don't get it, do you, Jason.

And btw, several people including myself have already explained this issue fairly well, and the fact that you don't get it only shows that you really haven't put very much thought into what we have already told you.

[Jason]

Ray,

Rather than toss insults around and ruin this thread, Im going to ask you to actually try and understand where Im coming from first, and then you can ask yourself if you've really answered any of my questions.

[Ray]

Okay, I believe I do understand where you are coming from, and Yes, I believe I have answered all of your questions.

And btw, if you disagree with me about that, try listing all of your questions again followed by every response I gave you to your questions and statements.

[Serg]

When i converted, this was one of the first questions that came to my mind. It seemed logical, that if i were to be a God, it would be unnecessary to "seal" myself with others in order to "stay"with them, if in fact, my power would go beyond comprehension, and i could go anywhere WITHIN the exalted realm. So visiting others would be no difficulty. But then , we are told that UNLESS we get sealed, ge cant get exalted, so , if "sealing" myself preceded "exaltation", then i would have to be sealed by the time i would get ALL power, hence, without needing to object to my done ordinance, having already been sealed, my powers would not demonstrate that they ALONE can take me anywhere i wanted... But the question still remains, although the "order"(conceived by us), is that sealing is a requisite to exaltation, still we can ask why then do i have to do something (get sealed) to be a God and be attached to someone, if in fact, if they leave me be a God WITHOUT inventing the ordinance of sealing , i could visit anyone there.....

But as you see, the answer is not possible to give, for it touches the most delicate and fragile aspect of the existence of Deity, and the whole concept of a Family of Gods that go beyond imagination....and this is...TIME. A beginning , if there ever existed one, which is in our carnal minds, as impossible as the air being of blood... Time, i say, because we are directly pointing to the "NECESSITY"(whether i need it or not) of an "eternal" established ordinance, which in fact, can only be answer through the very existence of an "order" we yet dont know....A long line of Gods in heaven, if considered well, cant end, for there cant be a time when there was NOT one God,(just as the popular belief that God couldnt be a man, for there had to be an ETERNAL being, unchangable, etc...), so my answer is, as much as i agree in the interesting part of this question, that i responsibly cant give any answers...

Yet , for those who dont believe, this "not answering", does not provide now or ever a "fault" in our belief, for if we were to understand ALL, of God's character, we would not be in this mortal state, but be Gods ourselves...So here remains another mystery of the Gods, of our Heavenly Father, and its enough for me, and very relaxing , that instead of saying that the character of my Father is a "mystery" to me(as those of all the other faiths proclaim), I , thanks to His truth, know far beyond that, and while others claim everything in Heaven to be incomprehensible, at least THIS is one of the few mysteries that latter day saints can call as such... and through life, even with faith, can get to understand it, even if its just grasping the borders thereof.

Regards...

[Ray]

Some good thoughts there, Serg, but I would like to clarify your point about the idea that there never was a time when there was not ONE God by addding the idea that that one God has always consisted of many "persons." Or in other words, we [LDS] do not believe there was ever a "time" when one "person" started the chain or family of Gods, because God has NEVER been only one "person".

And btw, I do know that what I believe about this is true, and I also believe that I will NEVER be able to make anyone else believe it.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

It is important if you have LDS parents and if you are concerned about their feelings over your own doubts...to keep them happy, even if you don't believe it is necessary

Off topic, I wonder why it is important to LDS parents. Does being sealed to your spouse have an effect on your eternal relationship with your parents? I thought that in the CK, a family unit consists of a man and woman and their spirit children (not their earth children).

And also off topic...if a family unit in the CK consists of a man and a woman and their spirit children...why are children sealed to their parents?

I am not being sarcastic or anything...I am honestly trying to figure out what we know about the doctrine of eternal marriage.

EDIT: I just realized how long this thread is. Maybe my question was already answered. But I don't have time to read the whole thread...if someonce can give a summary of the answer anyway, it would be apprectiated. Thanks.

[Laureltree]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 18 2005, 05:11 PM

It has not been brought up that I know.

To enter the Celestial Kingdom you must have received the endowment, living or dead.  By sealing family order would be maintained for those righteous who obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

Only those who have taken on the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage have the potential to obtain the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

I do not know or believe that if the family is sealed and as long as the children have not committed murder or the denying of Holy Ghost that they will follow their sealed parents in to the Celestial Kingdom.  No unclean thing can or will want to resided in the presence of Heavenly Father.

←

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 16:19).

“And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life … and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever” (D&C 132:19).

It's not that we must be sealed to get into heaven, we must be sealed to get the highest degree of glory.....

[Ray]

…all who will have a blessing at [the hands of the Lord] shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion… - Doctrine & Covenants section 132:5-8

Or in other words, unless the [contracts] we make to form our family associations are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, those [contracts] will be of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Or in other words, Tao, unless you are sealed to a woman by the Holy Spirit of promise, before your resurrection, you will no longer be the husband of the woman you now have as your wife, after the resurrection, and you will also no longer be the father of any children you may now have, after the resurrection, unless you and your wife are sealed to each other and your children.

Or in other words, if you ARE sealed to your wife by the Holy Spirit of promise during your life here on Earth, you and your wife can begin to establish your kingdom in Heaven while you are still here on the Earth, knowing that you will continue to have your wife and any children you and your wife may have during your life here on Earth, as well as the power to continue to have more children with your wife in heaven forever.

Or in other words, those of us who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise don’t have to wait to die before finding out what life will be like in heaven, because we have already been promised that it will be like it is now here on the Earth, only without any impediments which may now be beyond our power to remove.

And btw, there is more information about this issue within this thread if you would care to read it later.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 1 2005, 04:39 PM

Or in other words, Tao, unless you are sealed to a woman by the Holy Spirit of promise, before your resurrection, you will no longer be the husband of the woman you now have as your wife, after the resurrection, and you will also no longer be the father of any children you may now have, after the resurrection, unless you and your wife are sealed to each other and your children.

I understand the purpose of sealing husband and wife but why are they sealed to their children if in the CK the children will be a separate family unit.

The way I understand the CK...lets call this Scenario A...is that every couple will have spirit children and maybe a world to populate. Would not each couple have separate worlds with their own spirit children (worlds without end)...and therefore, wouldn't our own children be considered in a separate family unit? For example, my child would be married to a spouse and have spirit children in a family unit/world separate from my own. It would seem that my child would then be my brother or sister (as we are children of God)...and we would no longer be father and child as we were on earth. God would replace my role as their true father, I suppose.

Now this is all speculation, but it seems closer to the doctrine as I understand it than the idea..lets call this Scenario B... that one will be in the CK with their spouse and children together as a family unit...this is what is implied when children sing songs in primary about being together with their family forever. They may think of themselves as being a child forever with their parents forever. In fact, my LDS mother-in-law seems to think this way...she feels "sad" because a few of her grandchildren are not LDS because she will not be with them in the CK. The thing is, I don't see any evidence in LDS doctrine that she will be with ANY of her grandchildren of this earth, or even her children of this earth in the CK.

The problem is that Scenario B excludes the idea that your children are also sealed to spouses. And it also makes me wonder that if your children are in your CK family unit with you...and their spouse...wouldn't THEIR children be there too...and YOUR parents...and your SPOUSE's parents...and the Grandparents? And so on? Until this family unit is really just the entire family tree of humanity, sitting in a Celestial "living room" (for lack of a better word) having one big family home evening. No...that doesn't sound like the way the doctrine describes things.

So if Scenario A is correct, sealings between parents and children would seem to not mean much, because we would have the same "brother/sister" status with our children in the CK as we would with all other exalted humans.

However if Scenario B is correct, then I see the importance of sealing our children to us...and their children sealed to them...and so on...but if that is the case, what about spirit children and worlds without end? Are we all in the same Celestial Living Room, making our spirit children together and playing with our worlds, while still relating to each other as father and child?

You can see how I find this confusing...

[BenRaines]

I would agree more with your scenario B. Purpose of sealing to children is maintaining order. Our Heavenly Father is a God of order. Patriarchal order is maintained in the Celestial Kingdom.

You are correct that it matters most for husband and wife to be sealed. Two of my daughters married in the temple, had little girls and then were divorced. They were concerned what would be the position of their daughters in the Celestial Kingdom, who would they be sealed to. My response was that if they marry in the temple during their lifetime and they and their spouses endure to the end they will be sealed to their husbands, that is the most important sealing.

As stated earlier I have never read in the scriptures or instruction manuals used in the church that if the sealed parents earn the Celestial Kingdom the kids get a free pass to the CK. Someone had said that earlier.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Dec 1 2005, 05:41 PM

I would agree more with your scenario B.  Purpose of sealing to children is maintaining order.  Our Heavenly Father is a God of order.  Patriarchal order is maintained in the Celestial Kingdom.

So how would this Scenario B look, theoretically? Would it be like all these worlds are connected in a tree-like structure? While ultimately being subordinate to God, an exalted man's son would be subordinate to their earth father in the CK? So their "world" would have a father-son relationship with their father's world?

In this case...what happened if there is a break in the tree? For example, if your parents leave the Church and end up in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdom, are you then subordinate to your grandfather? Which one?

And what if your children are not sealed to you in the temple, but still marry their spouse in the temple? Will they still be subordinate to you?

By subordinate, I just mean the obedience involved in a father-son relationship.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

In response to someone's concern that they would be with their mother for eternity, I said this...

Also, if you look at the recent topic about Eternal Families, I asked the question why kids were sealed to their parents, considering that our eternal families will actually consist of a husband and wife and their SPIRIT children...not their earth children. Their earth children will be with their spouses creating their own spirit children, and ruling over their own separate worlds. So you may not be actually LIVING with your mother in the Celestial Kingdom...you will just have the privilige of visiting her, which I assume would be voluntary.

I thought that related nicely to this topic...at least to the questions I posted about the nature of eternal families (do they consist only of couples and their spirit children in their separate "worlds", or are they still connected to their "earth children" through a family tree of eternal couples "worlds" and their spirit children (see above posts).

[Ray]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Dec 1 2005, 05:50 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-BenRaines@Dec 1 2005, 05:41 PM

I would agree more with your scenario B.  Purpose of sealing to children is maintaining order.  Our Heavenly Father is a God of order.  Patriarchal order is maintained in the Celestial Kingdom.

So how would this Scenario B look, theoretically? Would it be like all these worlds are connected in a tree-like structure? While ultimately being subordinate to God, an exalted man's son would be subordinate to their earth father in the CK? So their "world" would have a father-son relationship with their father's world?

In this case...what happened if there is a break in the tree? For example, if your parents leave the Church and end up in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdom, are you then subordinate to your grandfather? Which one?

And what if your children are not sealed to you in the temple, but still marry their spouse in the temple? Will they still be subordinate to you?

By subordinate, I just mean the obedience involved in a father-son relationship.

←

We will only be subordinate to our fathers (and mothers) who are either as righteous or more righteous than we are.

Try looking at it this way:

All of us are children of our Eternal Father, and thus all of us are subordinate to Him. From that point our Eternal Father then gave us, or gives us, the opportunity to form other bonds within this “family” structure, while we still remain subordinate to Him.

For instance, if your immediate father and mother are as righteous or more righteous than you are, then they will continue to remain in their role as your father and mother within the family structure of our Eternal Father.

In contrast, if your immediate father and mother are not as righteous as you are, then your next immediate father and mother will remain in their role as your father and mother within the family structure of our Eternal Father, while your immediate father and mother will lose their role as your father and mother, and will simply be your brother and sister.

I recommend that you ponder the idea that when parents are sealed to their children, it also means that parents are sealed to their grandchildren, and great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren, etc., too.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 9 2005, 03:14 PM

We will only be subordinate to our fathers (and mothers) who are either as righteous or more righteous than we are.

Try looking at it this way:

All of us are children of our Eternal Father, and thus all of us are subordinate to Him.  From that point our Eternal Father then gave us, or gives us, the opportunity to form other bonds within this “family” structure, while we still remain subordinate to Him.

For instance, if your immediate father and mother are as righteous or more righteous than you are, then they will continue to remain in their role as your father and mother within the family structure of our Eternal Father.

In contrast, if your immediate father and mother are not as righteous as you are, then your next immediate father and mother will remain in their role as your father and mother within the family structure of our Eternal Father, while your immediate father and mother will lose their role as your father and mother, and will simply be your brother and sister.

Let me ask you Ray, when all of these people have attained the same grade of light, will the necessity of sealing still exist? Or does even God progress in your belief? Im aware of two schools of thought in Mormonism regarding God's "progression". One postures that God does in fact grow and learn eternally, the other that God is already completely full of all knowledge and does not or cannot progress further.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 9 2005, 02:14 PM

I recommend that you ponder the idea that when parents are sealed to their children, it also means that parents are sealed to their grandchildren, and great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren, etc., too.

I think that your explanation is a logical explanation of the organization of the Celestial Kingdom.

This goes back to the original question:

If it is the righteousness of the parents that is important in deciding if they will be your parents in heaven...is sealing necessary? It seems that if they are not sealed to us in this life, they will eventually be sealed to us...if they are righteous...basically, God sorts it all out in the end anyway.