Yes, Mormons And Catholics Are More Rational...

[Fiannan]

The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it. Post-Christian hyperrationalism is, in the objective sense, a lot less rational than Catholicism or Mormonism. Indeed, in its reliance on immigration to ensure its future, the European Union has adopted a 21st-century variation on the strategy of the Shakers, who were forbidden from reproducing and thus could increase their numbers only by conversion. The problem is that secondary-impulse societies mistake their weaknesses for strengths--or, at any rate, virtues--and that's why they're proving so feeble at dealing with a primal force like Islam.

It's the Demography, Stupid

The real reason the West is in danger of extinction.

BY MARK STEYN

Wednesday, January 4, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Interesting article. It seems to make sense on the surface that Europeans and Liberals will die out because they choose to have fewer children, and will eventually be conquered by Muslims who are having alot more children.

On the other hand, the author makes the point that we cannot predict the future.

Population can unpredictably grow or shrink when you take into account wars, weapons of mass destruction, reproduction, lack of reproduction, cloning, disease, medical advances...etc...

[Fiannan]

That may be true but if all remains equal as it is (no nuke war, etc.) the population of the west will be replaced. Here it will be less traumatic as the Lamanites replace the unrightious gentile populations (predicted in the Book of Mormon if the gentiles turned from God) but in Europe the main source of immigrants to push them around in their wheelchairs are Islamic and that could radically change the dynamics of western Europe.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Jan 5 2006, 05:07 PM

That may be true but if all remains equal as it is (no nuke war, etc.) the population of the west will be replaced.  Here it will be less traumatic as the Lamanites replace the unrightious gentile populations (predicted in the Book of Mormon if the gentiles turned from God) but in Europe the main source of immigrants to push them around in their wheelchairs are Islamic and that could radically change the dynamics of western Europe.

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In the case of America, who cares if "natives" take over the country? I assume you mean Central and South Americans. Most are Catholic, which will simply increase the Christian population of the United States. There will not be any of the oppression that we might fear from a Muslim majority. The only change will be the population's skin color, and I see no problem with that.

But if you are taking prophecy seriously, it is also likely that the death of all the Nephites already fulfilled that one.

If you are just giving us a cause/effect relationship between abortion and immigration, I guess that is possible. But again, I don't see the harm in this country gaining some color...the only people that need to be afraid are racist white people.

And for the record, I am against abortion.

[Fiannan]

the only people that need to be afraid are racist white people.

Are you saying whites are the only racists in this country?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Jan 5 2006, 05:29 PM

the only people that need to be afraid are racist white people.

Are you saying whites are the only racists in this country?

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No I am not saying that.

I am saying that it is the white racists that will generally fear a "Lamanite" immigraton, because they want to keep whites in the majority.

Non-white racists will have nothing to lose.

[Jason]

Cute article. But he offers nothing to substantiate his thesis beyond his biased opinion.

I loved this bit: "Some countries are well above that: the global fertility leader, Somalia, is 6.91, Niger 6.83, Afghanistan 6.78, Yemen 6.75. Notice what those nations have in common?"

Yeah. They have a life expectancy of 45. If they were likely to live to 100 like the West, they'd stop having so many damn kids too.

[Fiannan]

Non-white racists will have nothing to lose.

Don't know what you mean by that. Knew a Latino gal who had been a member of a Latino youth gang as a youth. Used to tell of her fights with black gangs (even show off her scars) . Didn't seem to be much love coming from her on that issue. Also, if you know anything about Latino culture you would also recognize that Mestizos are not fond of Indians.

Racism exists in all cultures and all peoples. I gather you may be into Asian culture but can you seriously deny that many/most Asians are incredibly racist towards people even of their own racial (but not ethnic) background?

[Fiannan]

Cute article. But he offers nothing to substantiate his thesis beyond his biased opinion.

Wow Jason, quite impressive.

I found his article quite analytical and well substantiated. If you would like more details with enough data to satisfy you then do a google search for demographics expert Ben Wattenberg. And while you may not like his politics (or maybe you do, I don't know) you could also look up Buchanan's work "Death of the West".

[Jason]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Jan 6 2006, 01:52 AM

Cute article. But he offers nothing to substantiate his thesis beyond his biased opinion.

Wow Jason, quite impressive.

I found his article quite analytical and well substantiated. If you would like more details with enough data to satisfy you then do a google search for demographics expert Ben Wattenberg. And while you may not like his politics (or maybe you do, I don't know) you could also look up Buchanan's work "Death of the West".

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It's not a scholarly paper. First, it was published in a non-peer review "opinion" paper. Second, there's no works cited page, no end notes or foot notes.

The whole thing reeks amature hour.

Oh, and by the way, my age "45" statistic comes from the CIA world fact book. B)

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Jan 6 2006, 12:48 AM

Non-white racists will have nothing to lose.

Don't know what you mean by that. Knew a Latino gal who had been a member of a Latino youth gang as a youth. Used to tell of her fights with black gangs (even show off her scars) . Didn't seem to be much love coming from her on that issue. Also, if you know anything about Latino culture you would also recognize that Mestizos are not fond of Indians.

I assumed that when you were talking about Lamanites immigrating and taking the jobs of Americans...I thought you meant Mexicans (Mestizo), which are descended from natives (Lamanites).

I guess you need to define what you consider to be a "Lamanite" for your audience.

Racism exists in all cultures and all peoples.  I gather you may be into Asian culture but can you seriously deny that many/most Asians are incredibly racist towards people even of their own racial (but not ethnic) background?

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Of course...I don't deny that.

I emphasized "white racists" because they will fear the loss of a white population majority in the USA.

Now, if you prefer, I can say that ANY racists who have a prejudice against Lamanites are the ones that need to fear this trend you describe.

In any case, the trend you describe is harmless. The only people that need to fear this trend are racists.

Those of us who are not racist do not worry about an increase in "Lamanite" workers, or the possibility that they will become a majority race.

I don't care...this is the way history works...races migrate and mix with each other.

If this article is true, my descendents will mix with "Lamanites" and will become "Lamanites"...or whatever new word is invented for that new race.

I would only worry if the Lamanites intended to kill or oppress all the white people...but the article does not suggest that...so why worry?

The only people that need to worry are people who are racist against Lamanites.

[Fiannan]

I thought you meant Mexicans (Mestizo), which are descended from natives (Lamanites).

There are three main ethnic divisions in Mexico -- a very small portion made up of Europeans (about 4%) mostly Spanish but some Irish (like their current president Vincente Fox). Then there are the Mestizos (mixed Indian and European) who make up around 70%. The rest are Indians -- usually in remote villages and in the south.

To be a Mestizo is considered higher on the social ladder than Indian. Indians are subjected to racism and are still expected to do the low skilled labor. This group has fast population growth and high unemployment.

Then ther are illegal aliens flooding across Mexico's border from central American nations (usually Indian as well).

Mexico is not really anxious to have illegals returned for obvious reasons.

As for my definition of a Lamanite I might go for a very lose definition -- someone who can trace any ancestory back to the original Nephite/Lamanite people. I suppose a broad stroke would also place me there but I think for all extensive purposes most people would say Mestizo and Indians are both Lamanites so perhaps this is a profecy being fulfilled.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Well, whether illegal or legal...I just see it as migration of people, which is inevitable and has always happened historically. America was not "white" 500 years ago...why should we expect it to stay that way during the next 500 years?

I have no problem with my descendents being non-white.