Texts From American Hisotry.

[Fiannan]

Let's start with George Washington's Thanksgiving Day Proclaimation. I once posted this on a forum and merely said something like Good 'ol President George is at it again. Look at what he wrote!" and then posted the proclaimation. Several liberal participants had a fit and said Bush was abusing his position as president and violating (the alleged I will note) the separation of church and state. By poster # 12 or so someone pointed out it was Washington's words.

The text:

"WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;-- for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;-- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge;-- and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions;-- to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine. "

(signed) George Washington

Source: The Massachusetts Centinel, Wednesday, October 14, 1789

The Mayflower Compact -- the first legal document in the American colonies and the beginning of what would become the United States.

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&.

Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/mayflow.html

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

James Madison, when speaking of the method and manner of the election of the members of the Congress, noted that even "Religion itself may become a motive to persecution and oppression," telegraphing his own desire for no religious test for government service. He had been a prime mover in the efforts of some Virginia lawmakers to ensure that no preference be given to any religion in that state, and that a proposed tax to aid religious efforts be defeated. Madison and one of the Pinkney cousins moved, in the waning days of the Convention, that the Congress be permitted the power to establish a university, with the express stipulation that "no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion." The motion was turned down on a six to four vote, but it was another illustration of his desire to extend no preference to any religious sect.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_reli.html

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

I agree with Madison's view that no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion.

That was the whole point of establishing a new nation; to escape religious persecution and allow free expression of beliefs, not to allow one denomination to dominate or be proclaimed the "majority," as if that allowed special consideration.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

I don't think they misunderstood anything. They knew the danger of a government showing favoritism toward a particular belief, and set our government up to respect all beliefs equally.

Thank God they did.

[Fiannan]

No disagreements here really. I will point out, however, that the founders of this nation, while wanting a denomination-free federal government permitted STATE governments to have taxes to support specific denominations. I believe the last to finally do away with that (through a legislative process, not a judicial) was Massachusettes in 1828.

Federal money was allocated by the federal government (Jefferson actually supported this) for the purpose of paying missionaries to convert the Indians to Christianity. Probably not something the ACLU or the NEA would like to recognize.

[sgallan]

Madison understood, as did Washington, the danger of "non-Christian minorities" usurping power to undermine our Christian heritage by misusing and abusing the right to amend the Constitution.

I just have to laugh. You are so clueless. You do realize don't you that most conservative Christians (the ones you seem to support) don't consider your religion as Christian, right? You'd be in the same boat as little ol' godless heathen me.

Or are you just trolling? If you are, you are a pretty good one.

Scott - who would be astonished if he actually got a honest (much less well thought out) answer.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Guest Syble]

I just have to laugh. You are so clueless. You do realize don't you that most conservative Christians (the ones you seem to support) don't consider your religion as Christian, right? You'd be in the same boat as little ol' godless heathen me.

You seem to be the one trolling. Most of the Christians are now recognizing the church as a Christian church. Maybe in a few backwoodsy areas of the South called Hillbillyville, (are you from there?) would still believe that the church is not Christian, but they aren't really accountable now are they? being they are so uneducated and out of touch with the world in general.

[Outshined]

Most of the Christians are now recognizing the church as a Christian church. Maybe in a few backwoodsy areas of the South called Hillbillyville, (are you from there?) would still believe that the church is not Christian, but they aren't really accountable now are they? being they are so uneducated and out of touch with the world in general.

Actually off the top of my head I can't name a major denomination in America that admits to considering us Christian. The Baptists, the United Methodist Church; they've put out press releases stating that we are not Christian. It's far from "hillbillies," it's most mainstream Christian denominations (Of course, many do not even consider Catholics to be Christian).

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

Most of the Christians are now recognizing the church as a Christian church. Maybe in a few backwoodsy areas of the South called Hillbillyville, (are you from there?) would still believe that the church is not Christian, but they aren't really accountable now are they? being they are so uneducated and out of touch with the world in general.

Actually off the top of my head I can't name a major denomination in America that admits to considering us Christian. The Baptists, the United Methodist Church; they've put out press releases stating that we are not Christian. It's far from "hillbillies," it's most mainstream Christian denominations (Of course, many do not even consider Catholics to be Christian).

Interesting because I was watching a PBS station sporting a forum of different denomination on the topic of LDS and they brought up several positive notations about the church including the name of the church and the BofM as a second witness to Jesus Christ. They spoke rather highly of the church's efforts to spread the words of Christ through out the world at the missionaries own expense.

So, I have no idea where you get your antiquated information.

[sgallan]

It appears that the minority who are outspoken in their criticisms would substaniate their own positions by shooting the messenger.

Your not bright enough, and way too much fun, to want to shoot. As far as trolls go you are pretty good though. And everybody should be good at something.....

So, I have no idea where you get your antiquated information.

LOL.... just type in the word Mormon, or go to any Christian based discussion group, and mention you are Mormon. Surely you are not that naive? And I don't give a crap because you are as Christian a religion as any other, but boy those conservative evangelical and Baptist types don't think much of ya.

Tell you what..... go to Beliefnet and post on the general Christian board that you are Mormon. Boy is your sheltered naive self going to be in for a suprise.

Unless you are purposefully being disingenious. Which would also be dishonest. Surely that isn't the case.

George Washington to Tench Tilghman, (March 24, 1784):

"I am a good deal in want of a House Joiner and Bricklayer, (who really understand their profession) and you would do me a favor by purchasing one of each, for me. I would not confine you to Palatines. If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, Jews or Christian of an Sect, or they may be Atheists."

John Adams

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):

“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams.

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Thomas Jefferson

Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

Letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

You are not the only one with access to google you know. I can google up virtually anything to prove whatever point I want to.

[Guest Monica]

What denomination was George Washington?

[Outshined]

So, I have no idea where you get your antiquated information.

Ah, another member who gets nasty when questioned.

Read the news sometime. Why do you think the UMC put out their statement last year that they cannot accept the LDS Church as Christian, or that the SBC picked SLC for their convention? They even put out their own program, The Mormon Puzzle, to explain our "culltish" qualities and explain why we are not Christian.

http://www.namb.net/site/c.9qKILUOzEpH/b.2...rmon_Puzzle.htm

http://archives.umc.org/umns/usnews_archiv...BFAF85}&mid=883

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=21713

http://www.sbc.net

I get my "antiquated information" from the churches themselves, not a single PBS program.

[sgallan]

George Washington was probably best described as Episcopalian.

The founding fathers were a mix of Diests, Christians, with Jefferson best described as agnostic. As a group they had more tolerance of those with different views, and a greater knowledge of the mischief specific religious views could cause, than does our society today. Heck, Jefferson with his often agnostic and anti-religious writings would be unelectable in todays climate.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

Actually it was established even better; as a nation that does not show religious preference, and therefore is conducive to free religious expression.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

It also does not allow Christians any sort of favoritism over non-Christians.

It was not intended to be a "Christian nation," but one where religious freedom could be exercised.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Fiannan]

Ironically, the Supreme Court in an anti-polygamy/LDS ruling (Reynolds, around 1870) actually ruled that the US was founded as a Christian nation and (due to the justice's interpretation of Christianity) so polygamy could not be allowed.

Oh, and sgallan, the Tripoli treaty was in reference to scabbles with people in the Middle East (wow, even back then) in which the intent was to illustrate that the US was not an official Christian nation in reference to foreign policy (i.e. unlike a antion today like Iran that feels their policies are a direct reflection of Shia Islam). The fact that it passed the US Senate unanamously (even with extremely strong Christian members) shows that this distiction makes it unlikely that the intent fits with what modern secularists try to portray it as meaning, namely that the US was to be totally secular or religion free in character.