Texts From American Hisotry.

[Outshined]

We should all be thankful that it was not established as a "Christian nation," or there would probably be no LDS Church.

[sgallan]

This country was founded upon Christianity. The First Amendment does not grant non-Christians amending power to destroy our Christian heritage.

Tsk, tsk. You are trolling again. Is being a troll a value you derive from your faith?

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[sgallan]

See..... if this were truely a 'Christian' nation, then it would be a theocracy. And I would either be dead or in jail. Because theocracies are notorious bad for those not part of the ruling religion (and the LDS/JW's would be toast as well). What this country really is, is called a Democratic Republic with a majority of the populus proclaiming themselves to be Christian to varying degrees. And...... even if you did want to make it a Christian theocracy..... look how many Christians are disagreeing with your desire?

[Outshined]

See..... if this were truely a 'Christian' nation, then it would be a theocracy. And I would either be dead or in jail. Because theocracies are notorious bad for those not part of the ruling religion (and the LDS/JW's would be toast as well). What this country really is, is called a Democratic Republic with a majority of the populus proclaiming themselves to be Christian to varying degrees. And...... even if you did want to make it a Christian theocracy..... look how many Christians are disagreeing with your desire?

Exactly. If it was founded as a "Christian nation," there would be no LDS Talk. We should be thankful that it is not.

And that was not "scripture", by the way...

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

Ether is not talking about the United States, and the US was not intended to be a "Christian nation." We are a nation of free religious expression, thank goodness.

If religion had been allowed to rule that way, you'd be in a different church right now, because this one would not exist.

The US does not favor one belief over another.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

Sorry, you're wrong again. Ether was talking about Nephi's new World, which most BOM scholars agree was probably in South America. There was no United States then. To make it about the US is to wrest the scriptures.

The idea that the US is a "Christian nation" is far from "undisputed"; your saying so does not make it so, you see. "Official Church documentation" says no such foolish thing. There is no scripture making the US a "Christian nation," as we all know. It is not a theocracy.

Pity you can't see the irony that such a system would have made the founding of this Church impossible.

Some people today assert that the United States government came from Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet just the opposite proves the case.

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force for religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that men should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

Repeating it does not make it scripture, but it does waste space. Ether is not about the US, as if you need to be told.

Be grateful that our government was set up to respect all faiths equally; that's part of what makes it great. I see little difference in your attitude and that of those Middle Easterners you're so disdainful of.

Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

Link

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[BenRaines]

America is comprised of two continents, North and South America. Americas is from the tip of Argentina and Chile to the top of Canada, Northern Territories and Alaska. The Americas was the land referred to, I believe, by the Prophets of the Americas, New World. A good thing that they didn't live in order or there would have been a New World Order even then. :) Said jokingly so that there is no misunderstanding.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."

In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

I've spent time in theocratic countries; what a blessing that the US has free religious expression, designed to respect all religion equally. B)

False. Washington was a Christian

Wrong; if you'd read, you'd know that.

More reading: http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822:

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Today, if ever our government needed proof that the separation of church and State works to ensure the freedom of religion, one only need to look at the plethora of Churches, temples, and shrines that exist in the cities and towns throughout the United States. Only a secular government, divorced from religion could possibly allow such tolerant diversity.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Of this, we are thankful. B)

I read Washington's prayers...by his own admittance, he was a Christian.

Washington made no such claim. http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest and least liable to exception."

Washington's religious views are a matter of some controversy. There is considerable evidence that he (like many of the Founding Fathers) was a Deist - believing in God (he preferred more impersonal appellations, like Providence), but not believing in divine intervention in the world after the initial design. Before the Revolution, when the Episcopal Church was still the state religion in Virginia, he served as a vestryman (lay officer) for his local church. He spoke often of the value of religion in general, and he often accompanied his wife to Christian church services. However, there is no record of his ever becoming a communicant in any Christian church and he would regularly leave services before communion - with the other non-communicants. When Rev. Dr. James Abercrombie, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church in Philadelphia mentioned in a weekly sermon that those in elevated stations set an unhappy example by leaving at communion, Washington ceased attending at all on communion Sundays. Long after Washington died, asked about Washington's beliefs, Abercrombie replied: "Sir, Washington was a Deist." Various prayers said to have been composed by him in his later life are highly edited. He did not ask for any clergy on his deathbed, though one was available. His funeral services were those of the Freemasons.

Washington was an early supporter of religious pluralism. In 1775 he ordered that his troops not burn the Pope in effigy on Guy Fawkes night. In 1790 he wrote to Jewish leaders that he envisioned a country "which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance.... May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid." This letter was seen by the Jewish community as highly significant; for the first time in millennia, Jews would enjoy full human and political rights.

Link

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[BenRaines]

Is it possible to worship God, A Creator, for some Our Creator and not be Christian?

[Sugarbay]

Is it possible to worship God, A Creator, for some Our Creatoer and not be Christian?

That's almost the "chicken or the egg" thing. I think it is possible to worship the Creator even if you aren't a Christian. BUT, is the Creator being worshipped properly?

B)

[Outshined]

Is it possible to worship God, A Creator, for some Our Creatoer and not be Christian?

I guess that depends on what you claim to be. Washington never claimed to "be" anything.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

<div class='quotemain'>

Is it possible to worship God, A Creator, for some Our Creatoer and not be Christian?

That's almost the "chicken or the egg" thing. I think it is possible to worship the Creator even if you aren't a Christian. BUT, is the Creator being worshipped properly?

B)

Of course, that is a valid question when discussing theological issues.

But the reason Ben asked the question (I think) is that many of the founding fathers were Deists. That is, they believed in a Creator...a God that created the universe, and thus was the first cause of everything...but not the Bible, Jesus or even the Judeo-Christian God. I think (I might be wrong about this) that Deists believe in Providence as "fate" (causality)...the inevitable outcome that was pre-ordained by the Creator. In that sense, the Constitution was destined to be written and was divinely inspired. That is the language of Deism.

Christians, however, would define Providence as God intervening in our lives...by miracles or revelation.

When reading historical quotes by founding fathers, like those posted above, it is important to check if they refer to "The Creator" or "God", which could be a Deist concept of God...or are they specifying Jesus Christ?

Some of them specify Jesus Christ, such as Washington sometimes did. It is entirely possible he was a Christian...if you read more objective articles about him, you will find that his faith was controversial...we just don't have enough evidence to say if he was a sincere Christian, or if he was a Deist...or if he was contradicting himself, which is also a possibility...some people change their beliefs during different periods of their lives...some change their beliefs daily!

Another thought...I think an important thing to do is to look at what they are writing, and who they are addressing. This might provide clues. It is my opinion that in some cases a person will speak in the "language" of their audience. If a founding father was writing to a Christian audience, it would be in his political interests to use Christian language...even if he was "misrepresenting" his own personal faith in the letter/speech/document/book. Not that he was doing it for personal power...he might have chosen his words carefully to gain support from Christians, for the cause of the Revolution/Constitution. Such "lies" could actually a GOOD thing, if it was helping the Revolution.

We don't even know for sure that George W. Bush is a real Christian...he might be doing the same thing so he can stay in power (whether that is a good or bad thing depends on your political beliefs)...on the other hand, he might be honest about his faith...it doesn't really matter actually, as long as his actions are right...his private faith is his own soul's concern, and we have no business questioning it.

By the way, we KNOW that this tactic is used by politicians, even today. Becasue unfortunately it is also used by BAD people. For example, Sadaam Hussein used to portray himself as a devout Muslim. Most of the Muslim world laughs at the idea, and believed he was using Islam to further his cause.

So the tactic of "misrepresenting" your religious beliefs can be used for good or evil.

I hope you all think about this and read your history very carefully with that in mind.

And one more thing...I wrote this last week on another thread, but it is relevant here:

So, putting Washington aside as a mystery, the other founding fathers appear to be a mix of Christians, Deists, Unitarians, and possibly Atheists. Fortunately, this diverse group had a common set of morals, being more concerned with freedom and independence. They could not have predicted the modern complex issues Christians would face today.

Based on this evidence, I believe the United States was not intended to be Christian, but that its Constitution was influenced by the Christians who participated in writing it. However, I think those contributions were probably simply morals that they shared with the Deists.

[BenRaines]

Taoist Saint. Great post. Thank you