Iran : A 17 Year Old Girl Is Sentenced To Death By Hanging.

[Aristotle]

Bush is a Nazi in a Texas Cowboy hat.

Yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaw!

[Outshined]

Does it bother you that Presidents have been doing the exact same thing since the 70's? Clinton did it; Reagan, and Carter. Bush is the just the first you were aware of... So I guess they've all been "Nazis"...

[Jason]

Does it bother you that Presidents have been doing the exact same thing since the 70's? Clinton did it; Reagan, and Carter. Bush is the just the first you were aware of... So I guess they've all been "Nazis"...

There was a law enacted in the late '70's that gave the Executive power to spy on anyone as long as they got a warrant within 3 days of taping the line.

Did Carter, Reagan or Clinton violate that law?

[Outshined]

Yes; it's already been established that they all eavesdropped without a warrant when they though it was necessary. Gore now says they were wrong to do it; convenient timing, I'd say.

Considering the circumstances in which they've done it, it doesn't bother me.

[Aristotle]

Anyone remember Watergate?

Speaking of spying, I wonder how many people on the internet have Spyware...

[Guest Syble]

I question any so-called Patriot who would support an administration that spy's on it's civilians without an official warrant.

"Those who sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin didn't live in our day and I am sure he would be the first to tell you that under the circumstances we are faced with in a World that lives in our livingrooms and is accessable within hours to port bombs and other deadly substances into our borders with very little or no warning, warrants going beyond what Benjamin Franklin could even understand.

Most times his statements are timeless and universal. But not this one.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

I question any so-called Patriot who would support an administration that spy's on it's civilians without an official warrant.

"Those who sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin didn't live in our day and I am sure he would be the first to tell you that under the circumstances we are faced with in a World that lives in our livingrooms and is accessable within hours to port bombs and other deadly substances into our borders with very little or no warning, warrants going beyond what Benjamin Franklin could even understand.

Most times his statements are timeless and universal. But not this one.

Im quite sure you're wrong.

In fact, I believe he'd chime in with Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or give me death".

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

[begood2]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I question any so-called Patriot who would support an administration that spy's on it's civilians without an official warrant.

"Those who sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin didn't live in our day and I am sure he would be the first to tell you that under the circumstances we are faced with in a World that lives in our livingrooms and is accessable within hours to port bombs and other deadly substances into our borders with very little or no warning, warrants going beyond what Benjamin Franklin could even understand.

Most times his statements are timeless and universal. But not this one.

Im quite sure you're wrong.

In fact, I believe he'd chime in with Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or give me death".

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

WOW Jason,

I'm shocked...I agree with you on some issues, but not this extreme view of all or none.

I feel that freedom is very important and should be respected, but as society gets more and more complexed...IMO, we as a group must restrict the reach or extent of some of our freedoms for the greater good of society at large. If we don't, then somewhere along the line...your freedoms, or my freedoms, or their freedoms will clash with each other until society as we know it can't exist any more.

[Outshined]

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

Yeah, I have to disagree. The "citizens" they've listened in on have all had ties to Al-Quaeda, so they should listen if it could stop the next attack. I'd rather my family was safe than to worry about whether a terrorist was "spied on". US citizens who plot the deaths of US women and children surrender their rights as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that's just me.

Bush is no more a dictator than Clinton was when he did it, or any of the others. It's funny the righteous anger that I'm seeing from politicians who have known about this program all along, but suddenly chose to make it an issue as if they had just heard about it.

The NSA is just doing what they've been doing all along; protecting the nation. Have you not heard of the ECHELON program? The NSA and related allied intelligence agencies have been screening email messages and phone communications by computer since at least the 90's. Supposedly the bank of supercomputers scans every form of electronic communications for keywords and phrases, such as "assassinate" or "bomb." This is not new at all, nor is it a Bush thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

http://cryptome.org/echelon-60min.htm

From the February 27, 2000 episode of 60 Minutes:

If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency and four English-speaking allies: Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand. The mission is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon's computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.

So you see that eavesdropping on a few terrorists is a drop in the bucket compared to what's been going on for many years.

[Aristotle]

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

To strain at a gnat and swallow a camel...

Yeah, I have to disagree. The "citizens" they've listened in on have all had ties to Al-Quaeda, so they should listen if it could stop the next attack. I'd rather my family was safe than to worry about whether a terrorist was "spied on". US citizens who plot the deaths of US women and children surrender their rights as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that's just me.

So you see that eavesdropping on a few terrorists is a drop in the bucket compared to what's been going on for many years.

I agree.

[thebomb7652000]

I think we should elect Pat Buchanan as president to keep all of these New Mexicans out of the country and as for Bill Clinton and Bush, Bush was the lesser of to evils and Bill Clinton, the nuclear santa clause, shouldn't have even got into office.But when it comes to terrorists I think that the U.S.A. should turn Iraq into a crater and any other country that harbours terrorists.

[Aristotle]

I think we should elect Pat Buchanan as president to keep all of these New Mexicans out of the country and as for Bill Clinton and Bush, Bush was the lesser of to evils and Bill Clinton, the nuclear santa clause, shouldn't have even got into office.But when it comes to terrorists I think that the U.S.A. should turn Iraq into a crater and any other country that harbours terrorists.

Don't you mean "old" Mexicans?? New Mexico is within the United States! BTW, in regard to "the wall" between us and Mexico, the Mexicans are now passing out maps to show ppl the way in. (I think the drug tunnel has been closed. LOL)

Clinton was worthless, and did more harm to this country by sending the wrong messages to the youth, in particular. And his wife isn't any better!

I think turning Iraq into a crater is the very last resort to ridding the world of terrorists.

[Jason]

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<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I question any so-called Patriot who would support an administration that spy's on it's civilians without an official warrant.

"Those who sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin didn't live in our day and I am sure he would be the first to tell you that under the circumstances we are faced with in a World that lives in our livingrooms and is accessable within hours to port bombs and other deadly substances into our borders with very little or no warning, warrants going beyond what Benjamin Franklin could even understand.

Most times his statements are timeless and universal. But not this one.

Im quite sure you're wrong.

In fact, I believe he'd chime in with Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or give me death".

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

WOW Jason,

I'm shocked...I agree with you on some issues, but not this extreme view of all or none.

I feel that freedom is very important and should be respected, but as society gets more and more complexed...IMO, we as a group must restrict the reach or extent of some of our freedoms for the greater good of society at large. If we don't, then somewhere along the line...your freedoms, or my freedoms, or their freedoms will clash with each other until society as we know it can't exist any more.

I stand by what I said.

<div class='quotemain'>

I'd rather terrorists blow up my family, friends, and anyone I've ever cared about all in a single blow, than allow this government to illegally spy on a single US Citizen.

I want no part of a Police State. I will not support a would-be dictator.

Bush should be Impeached.

Yeah, I have to disagree. The "citizens" they've listened in on have all had ties to Al-Quaeda, so they should listen if it could stop the next attack. I'd rather my family was safe than to worry about whether a terrorist was "spied on". US citizens who plot the deaths of US women and children surrender their rights as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that's just me.

Bush is no more a dictator than Clinton was when he did it, or any of the others. It's funny the righteous anger that I'm seeing from politicians who have known about this program all along, but suddenly chose to make it an issue as if they had just heard about it.

The NSA is just doing what they've been doing all along; protecting the nation. Have you not heard of the ECHELON program? The NSA and related allied intelligence agencies have been screening email messages and phone communications by computer since at least the 90's. Supposedly the bank of supercomputers scans every form of electronic communications for keywords and phrases, such as "assassinate" or "bomb." This is not new at all, nor is it a Bush thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

http://cryptome.org/echelon-60min.htm

From the February 27, 2000 episode of 60 Minutes:

If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency and four English-speaking allies: Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand. The mission is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon's computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.

So you see that eavesdropping on a few terrorists is a drop in the bucket compared to what's been going on for many years.

Sorry bro...but I've studied Nazi Germany enough to refuse to submit to any government "protection" for any reason.

I'd rather have a known, Al Qaeda supporting, dirty rotten American living next door to me, preaching his hatered in all its glory, than to have the government illegally eavesdropping on our privacy.

Wrong is wrong. Looks like the Government has way more to answer for than I initially thought.

[Aristotle]

Now this I can see complaining about: Iran: A 17 Year Old Girl Is Sentenced To Death By Hanging

[thebomb7652000]

The way that I see it if it was against the law what she done and is found guilty than I would rather hang than sit in a cell for the rest of my life, but than if it was self defence then I think she had the right to fight to the death, but it all depends on the laws of the land. B)

[Ray]

We'll have to agree to disagree; I've shown you the quotes stating why they left Christianity out of the Constitution.

You have your opinion, and we disagree with it.

You're not speaking for me, Outshined, because I agree with Aristotle on this.

And in case it might help to spell it out for you again, in my own words, I believe the founders of our nation were only trying to allow everyone the freedom to worship "God" as they chose, rather than having other people telling them how to worship "God", with the understanding that there is only one true God in heaven and they all agreed about Who that was.

Or in other words, if the founders of our nation had thought for a moment that American citizens might use the Constitution to support the worship of Satan as God, or the worship of Football as God, or the worship of anyone or anything else that is not God, I believe our founders would have chosen their words more carefully to avoid such distorted interpretations.

But, alas, they were mere men, and although they were guided by divine inspiration, there words, like the words of others, are not perfect.

[Outshined]

Sorry bro...but I've studied Nazi Germany enough to refuse to submit to any government "protection" for any reason.

I'd rather have a known, Al Qaeda supporting, dirty rotten American living next door to me, preaching his hatered in all its glory, than to have the government illegally eavesdropping on our privacy.

Wrong is wrong. Looks like the Government has way more to answer for than I initially thought.

But you've been submitting to them since you've been alive; you just didn't know it. Every president in the last 50 years (at least) has had these clandestine programs. They've been monitoring our communications for decades, and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it.

You're not speaking for me, Outshined, because I agree with Aristotle on this.

Then I disagree with you as well, but that's fine with me; that's what message boards are for.

We all have our opinions, and I've just never believed that our Constitution was designed to favor Christianity over other beliefs.

[Ray]

[

You're not speaking for me, Outshined, because I agree with Aristotle on this.

Then I disagree with you as well, but that's fine with me; that's what message boards are for.

We all have our opinions, and I've just never believed that our Constitution was designed to favor Christianity over other beliefs.

Heh, well, if you put it that way, I don’t believe the Constitution was “designed” to “favor” Christianity either.

But I do believe the founders of our nation had the God we know in mind when giving Americans the freedom to worship God however we please… which is what I believed Aristotle was saying. :)

[Outshined]

Well, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be happy with the satan or football thing , but I believe they at least had Judaism, Islam, and other religions in mind.

[Aristotle]

...it all depends on the laws of the land. B)

Well, that's the whole point, in a nutshell. This wouldn't happen in a Christian nation!

[Ray]

...I believe they at least had Judaism, Islam, and other religions in mind.

I don't really think so, since none of those people were very acquainted with those other religions.

But even if they did, we all worship the same God that they do... though many of us don't really know it.

[Aristotle]

You're not speaking for me, Outshined, because I agree with Aristotle on this.

And in case it might help to spell it out for you again, in my own words, I believe the founders of our nation were only trying to allow everyone the freedom to worship "God" as they chose, rather than having other people telling them how to worship "God", with the understanding that there is only one true God in heaven and they all agreed about Who that was.

Or in other words, if the founders of our nation had thought for a moment that American citizens might use the Constitution to support the worship of Satan as God, or the worship of Football as God, or the worship of anyone or anything else that is not God, I believe our founders would have chosen their words more carefully to avoid such distorted interpretations.

But, alas, they were mere men, and although they were guided by divine inspiration, there words, like the words of others, are not perfect.

Very well stated, Ray...and of course, I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[Outshined]

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...I believe they at least had Judaism, Islam, and other religions in mind.

I don't really think so, since none of those people were very acquainted with those other religions.

But even if they did, we all worship the same God that they do... though many of us don't really know it.

Jefferson apparently was, as he mentioned them in the quote I provided...

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

EDIT: I also agree that we all worship the same God under different names, according to our understanding of Him.

[Ray]

Heh, that quote also shows that they considered Jesus Christ to be the holy author of their religion. :)

[Aristotle]

Heh, well, if you put it that way, I don’t believe the Constitution was “designed” to “favor” Christianity either.

But I do believe the founders of our nation had the God we know in mind when giving Americans the freedom to worship God however we please… which is what I believed Aristotle was saying. :)

I think this quote best describes it:

"Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state...we are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment (in the First Amendment) to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity, which none could hold in more reverence than the framers of the constitution..."

- Joseph Story, appointee to Pres. James Madison