Should the Jews be Held Blameless

[Bensalem]

3 Nephi 16:10-11

Thank you for providing the scriptural evidence of my claim that the LDS church is the restoration of the house of Israel (after the gentile Catholics and Christians fulfilled the first part of this prophecy).

[Bensalem]

I believe in the thought process here anyone who tries destroying you is generally considered an enemy. At the time of Christ, many of the leadership sought to destroy or remove christ in some manner or another, and ultimitely it was their doing that got him on the cross. Does this mean all of the jews are? no.

I was thinking of those in our time who deny the Anointed One of Israel. Will God treat them as enemies?

[Bensalem]

Ooooh... be careful there. Jewish persecution at the hands of the Catholic church... THAT kind of statement is what is getting you in trouble in this thread. You are quick to assign actions/events to a collective group when that action/event does not define that group at all.

Jewish persecution was carried out by Catholics BUT THEY WERE NEVER PART OF CATHOLIC DOGMA... not then, not now, not EVER. The Catholic church has repeatedly squashed anti-semitism - from the rise of anti-semitism after the First Crusade all the way to now. It is basically like saying the Mormon Church issued the massacre at Mountain Meadows. Yes, Mormons massacred a group of travelers at Mountain Meadows but no, that was not a mandate from the Church. Just like the Muslim Religion did not blow up the towers on 9/11 even if the attack was carried out by muslims.

People act on their hatred because they are PEOPLE. Put a bunch of 5th graders together on a playground and you will soon notice that SOME of them will group into cliques rejecting other groups because of some "difference". How do you think these kids start to get labled as Nerds or Jocks or Geeks, etc? If it's not about them being Jews, it will be something else.

But, what we have here may be a misunderstanding stemming from the word "BLAME". I use "blame" as "sin" or "transgression". The people crying out for Christ's crucifixion transgressed. There is no getting around that. If they haven't transgressed or sinned, then Jesus Christ wouldn't have declared "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". Because then there would have been nothing to forgive.

First, I didn't know I was in any trouble for what I have posted.

Second, I have spoken to enough Jewish people who believe that the Catholic church's role in kidnapping and forced baptisms of Jewish children qualifies my statements.

And third, in proclaiming the Jews blameless in Jesus' death I am doing exactly as our Father in heaven did if He listened to the plea of His Son.

This has turned out to be a very strange thread because while professing the Jewish people blameless I have been accused of being an anti-Semite.

Think about it!

[skippy740]

Let's take a look at D&C 107

verse 17

But as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices, he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

verse 69

Nevertheless a bishop must be chosen from the High Priesthood, unless he is a literal descendant of Aaron;

Verse 73

This is the duty of a bishop who is not a literal descendant of Aaron, but has been ordained to the High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

D&C 68:19

But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

If the Jews are to be blamed/punished, why would the Lord allow a literal descendant of Aaron to become a Bishop?

If they were His enemies, they would be denied the gospel. Even The Book of Mormon is for the "convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ".

[Bensalem]

But you're making a little leap there, Ben. It does not follow from the passages you've mentioned that morally reprehensible acts become "blameless" merely because they serve a greater good. And if you are referring to Ephesians 2:9 in that last one, I don't see a connection at all; sorry.

Paul's teaching on grace removes man from the equation of the Atonement. So does my claim that we should hold the Jewish people blameless for the crucifixion...lest the claim be made that they gave us our Savior by their acts or at their hand.

It had to happen in fulfillment of God's word as recorded in the BOM when Nephi had a vision unto the Atonement and crucifixion of Christ, a description more clearly stated than anything found in the Old Testament.

You mean Israel.

Another poster made it clear that the UN declaration established a Jewish state, they did not establish Israel. So I too will call it a Jewish state, not Israel...since I recognize only the LDS church as being the threshold of Israel.

Actually the false doctrines of collective and/or inherited guilt do that.

The crucifixion was the greatest crime ever committed. Jesus pled with His Father to forgive his crucifiers precisely because they were committing a wicked act. If the act was "blameless" in itself, no guilt would attach, and there would consequently be nothing to forgive them for.

Regards,

Pahoran

Blameless, faultless, and forgiven. I use each word in support of the others.

[Guest]

First, I didn't know I was in any trouble for what I have posted.

Second, I have spoken to enough Jewish people who believe that the Catholic church's role in kidnapping and forced baptisms of Jewish children qualifies my statements.

And third, in proclaiming the Jews blameless in Jesus' death I am doing exactly as our Father in heaven did if He listened to the plea of His Son.

This has turned out to be a very strange thread because while professing the Jewish people blameless I have been accused of being an anti-Semite.

Think about it!

Just to get things straight... I'm not one of the people calling your posts anti-semitic.

I might have used the wrong wording in saying your posts got you in "trouble". I was referring to some people mis-interpreting your posts as anti-semitic due to the sweeping generalizations you make. So, what I meant to say was - your posts got easily mis-interpreted.

I can pull a pretty good number of my Christian friends calling Mormons non-Christian too. Doesn't make it true. And being born and raised a devout Catholic and now a Mormon, I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about.

And when the Father forgives, it doesn't change the fact that one has sinned. It just means that one is forgiven.

Edited December 7, 2010 by anatess

[Bensalem]

Let's take a look at D&C 107

verse 17

verse 69

Verse 73

D&C 68:19

If the Jews are to be blamed/punished, why would the Lord allow a literal descendant of Aaron to become a Bishop?

If they were His enemies, they would be denied the gospel. Even The Book of Mormon is for the "convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ".

These scriptures do not allow a literal descendant of Aaron to become a bishop in the LDS church without first being baptized in water and by the Spirit according to the gospel.

Neither could a literal descendant of Aaron become a bishop if he denied that Jesus was the Christ, or if he would not sustain Joseph Smith as a prophet and the apostles as being the leaders of His Church.

A literal descendant of Aaron must be a convert first. Such a person would naturally not be an enemy of God.

[Bensalem]

Just to get things straight... I'm not one of the people calling your posts anti-semitic.

I might have used the wrong wording in saying your posts got you in "trouble". I was referring to some people mis-interpreting your posts as anti-semitic due to the sweeping generalizations you make. So, what I meant to say was - your posts got easily mis-interpreted.

I can pull a pretty good number of my Christian friends calling Mormons non-Christian too. Doesn't make it true. And being born and raised a devout Catholic and now a Mormon, I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about.

And when the Father forgives, it doesn't change the fact that one has sinned. It just means that one is forgiven.

I am aware that you are not one of those that called me anti-Semitic.

I am not basing my views of Catholic atrocities on the voices of others. I believe my reading of history allows me to make those claims myself. It doesn't take much vision to see that the Catholic church in Rome did not represent Christ in their actions and policies toward other people, cultures, and nations.

Forgiveness certainly removes the blame.

[JohnnyRudick]

I am aware that you are not one of those that called me anti-Semitic.

I am not basing my views of Catholic atrocities on the voices of others. I believe my reading of history allows me to make those claims myself. It doesn't take much vision to see that the Catholic church in Rome did not represent Christ in their actions and policies toward other people, cultures, and nations.

Forgiveness certainly removes the blame.

Having copies in my possession of the Martyrs Mirror and Foxe's Book of Martyrs

which I have read some years back had opened my mind and curiosity in that

direction for quite a while.

Must be at least a little truth to the accounts.

Maybe not policy but at least a blind eye don't ya think?

[Guest]

I am aware that you are not one of those that called me anti-Semitic.

I am not basing my views of Catholic atrocities on the voices of others. I believe my reading of history allows me to make those claims myself. It doesn't take much vision to see that the Catholic church in Rome did not represent Christ in their actions and policies toward other people, cultures, and nations.

That may be. But anti-semitism is not one of them.

Forgiveness certainly removes the blame.

Then I guess we don't have the same understanding of the word "blame". Okay, here's an object example. Mr. Doe's house burnt down because his neighbor Mr. Sam unknowingly flicked his lighted cigarette butt onto Mr. Doe's dry bushes. So, I can conclude that Mr. Sam is to "BLAME" for Mr. Doe's house burning down. Mr. Doe forgave Mr. Sam for the incident and now they are good neighbors again. But, if you ask - Who is to blame for Mr. Doe's house burning down? My answer will be the same: Mr. Sam. Just because Mr. Doe forgave Mr. Sam doesn't change the fact that Mr. Sam is still to "BLAME" for Mr. Doe's house burning down.

See what I'm saying?

[Bensalem]

Having copies in my possession of the Martyrs Mirror and Foxe's Book of Martyrs

which I have read some years back had opened my mind and curiosity in that

direction for quite a while.

Must be at least a little truth to the accounts.

Maybe not policy but at least a blind eye don't ya think?

I am unfamiliar with those writings. Are you saying they support my assertion that the Roman Catholic Church has an atrocious history?

[Bensalem]

That may be. But anti-semitism is not one of them.

I never said that the Catholic church's actions were anti-Semitic. I said that they did not represent Christ. Their actions through history demonstrate that Christ was not guiding their church leaders. Their history is witness to their apostasy.

Then I guess we don't have the same understanding of the word "blame". Okay, here's an object example. Mr. Doe's house burnt down because his neighbor Mr. Sam unknowingly flicked his lighted cigarette butt onto Mr. Doe's dry bushes. So, I can conclude that Mr. Sam is to "BLAME" for Mr. Doe's house burning down. Mr. Doe forgave Mr. Sam for the incident and now they are good neighbors again. But, if you ask - Who is to blame for Mr. Doe's house burning down? My answer will be the same: Mr. Sam. Just because Mr. Doe forgave Mr. Sam doesn't change the fact that Mr. Sam is still to "BLAME" for Mr. Doe's house burning down.

See what I'm saying?

Of course you are right if you look at it in a strictly secular way. But you left out the scriptures regarding Mr. Doe, which foretold of his misfortune. As the story goes, Mr. Doe had been blessed of God to receive much in this life but he failed to give credit to God, he became proud of what he felt were his own accomplishments, he only thought of himself and lacked charity. It was foretold by a prophet of God that Mr. Doe would lose his house and all his possessions in a great fire.

Mr. Sam knew nothing of these scriptures recording the fate of Mr. Doe but Mr. Doe was a faithful man and had read them several times always reassuring himself that his God was a merciful and forgiving God and so he felt his actions would be tolerated by our Lord and that the day of fulfillment would never come. Mr. Doe’s pride and false security blinded him to the reality that the fire would come in fulfillment of the word of God.

Now in the light of this fulfillment, who is to blame?

[Dravin]

Now in the light of this fulfillment, who is to blame?

If God actively encouraged Sam (instead of leaving him to his own inclinations) God is. Sam is to blame regardless of if God told him to or if he did so due to his own inclinations. And Doe is to blame for not preventing what he knew would happen.

It is the import and implications of the blame that shifts based on if Sam was inspired or if God left him to his own devices. You really need to get off your Highlander kick.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Dravin

[JohnnyRudick]

I am unfamiliar with those writings. Are you saying they support my assertion that the Roman Catholic Church has an atrocious history?

I am saying that it worked out that many who would rather take their instruction from the written Word instead of a body far removed from the local Church was met with organized and great hostility to the point of even being gathered into the local meeting house and burned along with all written letters designated as the writings of those witnesses of the beginnings of the Church of Christ.

The Book of Mormon reveals to us;

1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest

the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most

abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken

away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and

most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they

taken away.

1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert

the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and

harden the hearts of the children of men.

Isaiah was given a revelation that he wrote down for us;

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit

of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your

rulers, the seers hath he covered.

God told us through Amos the prophet;

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I

will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a

thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the

north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the

word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

This was carried out by zealous men who believed in keeping men in the dark concerning the words of God.

as I have said , the early church down through the centuries had to hide in the hills and mountains of Turkey,

Greece and Italy and even France from those who would burn their churches, and

Scriptures and even the Christians themselves.

It seems they did not like the Scriptures in the hands of the people.

It seems that when the people had what they believed to be4 the words of the early followers of God

they would have their own churches and would not give allegiance to those outside who clamed power

but to God.

Nuff said?

Edited December 8, 2010 by JohnnyRudick
After thought:-)

[Bensalem]

I am saying that it worked out that many who would rather take their instruction from the written Word instead of a body far removed from the local Church was met with organized and great hostility to the point of even being gathered into the local meeting house and burned along with all written letters designated as the writings of those witnesses of the beginnings of the Church of Christ.

The Book of Mormon reveals to us;

1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest

the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most

abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken

away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and

most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they

taken away.

1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert

the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and

harden the hearts of the children of men.

Isaiah was given a revelation that he wrote down for us;

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit

of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your

rulers, the seers hath he covered.

God told us through Amos the prophet;

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I

will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a

thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the

north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the

word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

This was carried out by zealous men who believed in keeping men in the dark concerning the words of God.

as I have said , the early church down through the centuries had to hide in the hills and mountains of Turkey,

Greece and Italy and even France from those who would burn their churches, and

Scriptures and even the Christians themselves.

It seems they did not like the Scriptures in the hands of the people.

It seems that when the people had what they believed to be4 the words of the early followers of God

they would have their own churches and would not give allegiance to those outside who clamed power

but to God.

Nuff said?

If I understand you correctly the books you listed earlier record the martyrdom of those persecuted by the Catholic church.

[JohnnyRudick]

If I understand you correctly the books you listed earlier record the martyrdom of those persecuted by the Catholic church.

As far as I know, I have read letters from those persecuted and it seemed to them that the Church of Rome was running a pogrom on them.

They had no way of knowing if it were official Church policy or not and no official writing is available to us to say there was.

I have only read from the "Early Church Fathers" that there were heretics.

Which I gathered meant that they did not believe the same way the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ IE Church of Rome believed.

I have what I have taken from all this but I do not believe it is the policy of this web site to share those beliefs.

Done.

Edited December 11, 2010 by JohnnyRudick
spelling:-)

[volgadon]

That is exactly what I am saying. Israel is where the LDS church is, not where people claim it is in the Middle East country by the same name.

There is a spiritual Israel, that is, the church, but there is also a physical Israel, whose home is in the Middle East country which you speak of so disparigingly.

The scriptures are pretty clear on this.

[volgadon]

I don't understand your comment or recognize the source; perhaps you could educate me with an explanation.

My comment was a bit from a primary source countering your statement that Israel is not a Jewish state. The quote is fairly famous, it is by Theodore Herzl.

[Guest]

I never said that the Catholic church's actions were anti-Semitic. I said that they did not represent Christ. Their actions through history demonstrate that Christ was not guiding their church leaders. Their history is witness to their apostasy.

Of course you are right if you look at it in a strictly secular way. But you left out the scriptures regarding Mr. Doe, which foretold of his misfortune. As the story goes, Mr. Doe had been blessed of God to receive much in this life but he failed to give credit to God, he became proud of what he felt were his own accomplishments, he only thought of himself and lacked charity. It was foretold by a prophet of God that Mr. Doe would lose his house and all his possessions in a great fire.

Mr. Sam knew nothing of these scriptures recording the fate of Mr. Doe but Mr. Doe was a faithful man and had read them several times always reassuring himself that his God was a merciful and forgiving God and so he felt his actions would be tolerated by our Lord and that the day of fulfillment would never come. Mr. Doe’s pride and false security blinded him to the reality that the fire would come in fulfillment of the word of God.

Now in the light of this fulfillment, who is to blame?

Still Mr. Sam.

Because, just because God foretold that Mr. Doe's house will burn doesn't negate the fact that Mr. Sam still committed the transgression by throwing the cigarette butt onto Mr. Doe's bushes. Mr. Sam still caused Mr. Doe's house to catch fire. Not God, not Mr. Doe.

God did not command Mr. Sam to throw his cigarette onto Mr. Doe's bushes to punish Mr. Doe.

Juxtapose that with Laban being killed by Nephi by God's command. Nephi cannot be blamed for Laban's death.

Edited December 9, 2010 by anatess

[Dravin]

Juxtapose that with Laban being killed by Nephi by God's command. Nephi cannot be blamed for Laban's death.

Yes he can. Nephi was justified in killing Laban (because he was commanded) but that doesn't mean he can't be blamed. I know blame is a negatively charged word, one could change it to responsible if you prefer, but the fact that God tells us to do something doesn't remove our responsibility for our own actions. It's just that responsibility/blame (in God's eyes if not society) is to our benefit instead of our detriment.

Note I'm speaking of Laban and Nephi. I'm not trying to draw any parallels between the hypothetical example given nor the Jews (as in those who actually killed him not the entire people) killing Christ.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Dravin

[volgadon]

Just to get things straight... I'm not one of the people calling your posts anti-semitic.

I was.

I might have used the wrong wording in saying your posts got you in "trouble". I was referring to some people mis-interpreting your posts as anti-semitic due to the sweeping generalizations you make. So, what I meant to say was - your posts got easily mis-interpreted.

I can pull a pretty good number of my Christian friends calling Mormons non-Christian too. Doesn't make it true. And being born and raised a devout Catholic and now a Mormon, I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about.

Bensalem's posts are anti-Semitic. Indeed, his OP shows that he sees the Jews as collectively responsible for the death of Christ, although they are to be held "blameless". In other words, God made them do it. He then proceeds along the "true Israel" line of argumentation to deny modern jews any legitimacy, another classic feature of old anti-Semitism.

I'm from israel, I've done quite a bit of work on various forms of anti-Semitism throughought my highschool years, so I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about as well.

[volgadon]

"O Thou! who art from everlasting to everlasting, eternally and unchangeably the same, even the God who rules in the heavens above, and controls the destinies of men on the earth, wilt Thou not condescend, through thine infinite goodness and royal favor, to listen to the prayer of Thy servant which he this day offers up unto Thee in the name of Thy holy child Jesus, upon this land, where the Son of Righteousness set in blood, and thine Anointed One expired.

"Be pleased, O Lord, to forgive all the follies, weaknesses, vanities, and sins of Thy servant, and strengthen him to resist all future temptations. Give him prudence and discernment that he may avoid the evil, and a heart to choose the good; give him fortitude to bear up under trying and adverse circumstances, and grace to endure all things for Thy name's sake, until the end shall come, when all the Saints shall rest in peace.

"Now, O Lord! Thy servant has been obedient to the heavenly vision which Thou gavest him in his native land; and under the shadow of Thine outstretched arm, he has safely arrived in this place to dedicate and consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah's scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets -- for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name. Everlasting thanks be ascribed unto Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast preserved Thy servant from the dangers of the seas, and from the plague and pestilence which have caused the land to mourn. The violence of man has also been restrained, and Thy providential care by night and by day has been exercised over Thine unworthy servant. Accept, therefore, O Lord, the tribute of a grateful heart for all past favors, and be pleased to continue Thy kindness and mercy towards a needy worm of the dust.

"O Thou, Who didst covenant with Abraham, Thy friend, and who didst renew that covenant with Isaac, and confirm the same with Jacob with an oath, that Thou wouldst not only give them this land for an everlasting inheritance, but that Thou wouldst also remember their seed forever. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have long since closed their eyes in death, and made the grave their mansion. Their children are scattered and dispersed abroad among the nations of the Gentiles like sheep that have no shepherd, and are still looking forward for the fulfillment of those promises which Thou didst make concerning them; and even this land, which once poured forth nature's richest bounty, and flowed, as it were, with milk and honey, has, to a certain extent, been smitten with barrenness and sterility since it drank from murderous hands the blood of Him who never sinned.

"Grant, therefore, O Lord, in the name of Thy well-beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to remove the barrenness and sterility of this land, and let springs of living water break forth to water its thirsty soil. Let the vine and olive produce in their strength, and the fig-tree bloom and flourish. Let the land become abundantly fruitful when possessed by its rightful heirs; let it again flow with plenty to feed the returning prodigals who come home with a spirit of grace and supplication; upon it let the clouds distil virtue and richness, and let the fields smile with plenty. Let the flocks and the herds greatly increase and multiply upon the mountains and the hills; and let Thy great kindness conquer and subdue the unbelief of Thy people. Do Thou take from them their stony heart, and give them a heart of flesh; and may the Sun of Thy favor dispel the cold mists of darkness which have beclouded their atmosphere. Incline them to gather in upon this land according to Thy word. Let them come like clouds and like doves to their windows. Let the large ships of the nations bring them from the distant isles; and let kings become their nursing fathers, and queens with motherly fondness wipe the tear of sorrow from their eye.

"Thou, O Lord, did once move upon the heart of Cyrus to show favor unto Jerusalem and her children. Do Thou now also be pleased to inspire the hearts of kings and the powers of the earth to look with a friendly eye towards this place, and with a desire to see Thy righteous purposes executed in relation thereto. Let them know that it is Thy good pleasure to restore the kingdom unto Israel -- raise up Jerusalem as its capital, and constitute her people a distinct nation and government, with David Thy servant, even a descendant from the loins of ancient David to be their king.

"Let that nation or that people who shall take an active part in behalf of Abraham's children, and in the raising up of Jerusalem, find favor in Thy sight. Let not their enemies prevail against them, neither let pestilence or famine overcome them, but let the glory of Israel overshadow them, and the power of the Highest protect them; while that nation or kingdom that will not serve Thee in this glorious work must perish, according to Thy word --- Yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

"Though Thy servant is now far from his home, and from the land bedewed with his earliest tear, yet he remembers, O Lord, his friend: who are there, and family, whom for Thy sake he has left. Though poverty and privation be our earthly lot, yet ah! do Thou richly endow us with an inheritance where moth and rust do not corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal.

"The hands that have fed, clothed, or shown favor unto the family of Thy servant in his absence, or that shall hereafter do so, let them not lose their reward, but let a special blessing rest upon them, and in Thy kingdom let them have an inheritance when Thou shalt come to be glorified in this society.

"Do Thou also look with favor upon all those through whose liberality I have been enabled to come to this land; and in the day when Thou shalt reward all people according to their works, let these also not be passed by or forgotten, but in time let them be in readiness to enjoy the glory of those mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare. Particularly do Thou bless the stranger in Philadelphia, whom I never saw, but who sent me gold, with a request that I should pray for him in Jerusalem. Now, O Lord, let blessings come upon him from an unexpected quarter, and let his basket be filled, and his storehouse abound with plenty, and let not the good things of the earth be his only portion, but let him be found among those to whom it shall be said, `Thou hast been faithful over a few things, and I will make thee ruler over many.'

"O my Father in heaven! I now ask Thee in the name of Jesus to remember Zion, with all her Stakes, and with all her assemblies. She has been grievously afflicted and smitten; she has mourned; she has wept; her enemies have triumphed, and have said, `Ah, where is thy God?' Her Priests and Prophets have groaned in chains and fetters within the gloomy walls of prisons, while many were slain, and now sleep in the arms of death. How long, O Lord, shall iniquity triumph, and sin go unpunished?

"Do Thou arise in the majesty of Thy strength, and make bare Thine arm in behalf of Thy people. Redress their wrongs, and turn their sorrow into joy. Pour the spirit of light and knowledge, grace and wisdom, into the hearts of her Prophets, and clothe her Priests with salvation. Let light and knowledge march forth through the empire of darkness, and may the honest in heart flow to their standard, and join in the march to go forth to meet the Bridegroom.

"Let a peculiar blessing rest upon the Presidency of Thy Church, for at them are the arrows of the enemy directed. Be Thou to them a sun and a shield, their strong tower and hiding place; and in the time of distress or danger be Thou near to deliver. Also the quorum of the Twelve, do Thou be pleased to stand by them for Thou knowest the obstacles which they have to encounter, the temptations to which they are exposed, and the privations which they must suffer. Give us, [the Twelve] therefore, strength according to our day, and help us to bear a faithful testimony of Jesus and His Gospel, to finish with fidelity and honor the work which Thou hast given us to do, and then give us a place in Thy glorious kingdom. And let this blessing rest upon every faithful officer and member in Thy Church. And all the glory and honor will we ascribe unto God and the Lamb forever and ever. Amen."

[volgadon]

Then why would you accuse me of such a thing when I have shown no hatred or prejudice?

I wouldn't, were that the case. It isn't.

[volgadon]

Another poster made it clear that the UN declaration established a Jewish state, they did not establish Israel. So I too will call it a Jewish state, not Israel...since I recognize only the LDS church as being the threshold of Israel.

Declaration of Israeli Independence

Issued at Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948 (5th of lyar, 5708)

(1) The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world.

(2) Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and the restoration of their national freedom.

(3) Impelled by this historic association, Jews strove throughout the centuries to go back to the land of their fathers and regain their statehood. In recent decades they returned in masses. They reclaimed the wilderness, revived their language, built cities and villages and established a vigorous and ever-growing community, with its own economic and cultural life. They sought peace yet were ever prepared to defend themselves. They brought the blessing of progress to all inhabitants of the country.

(4) In the year 1897 the First Zionist Congress, inspired by Theodor Herzl’s vision of the Jewish State, proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national revival in their own country.

(5) This right was acknowledged by the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, and re-affirmed by the Mandate of the League of Nations, which gave explicit international recognition to the historic connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and their right to reconstitute their National Home.

(6) The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the reestablishment of the Jewish State, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.

(7) The survivors of the European catastrophe, as well as Jews from other lands, proclaiming their right to a life of dignity, freedom and labor, and undeterred by hazards, hardships and obstacles, have tried unceasingly to enter Palestine.

(8) In the Second World War the Jewish people in Palestine made a full contribution in the struggle of the freedom-loving nations against the Nazi evil. The sacrifices of their soldiers and the efforts of their workers gained them title to rank with the peoples who founded the United Nations.

(9) On November 29,1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

(10) This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own sovereign State.

(11) ACCORDINGLY, WE the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assembly today, the day of termination of the British mandate for Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people and of the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations,

(12) HEREBY PROCLAIM the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL.

(13) WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th to 15th May, 1948, and until the setting up of the duly elected bodies of a Constituent Assembly not later than the first day of October, 1948, the present National Council shall act as the provisional administration, shall constitute the Provisional Government of the State of Israel.

(14) THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines andHoly Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

(15) THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be ready to cooperate with the organs and representatives of the United Nations in the implementation of the Resolution of the Assembly of November 29, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the Economic Union over the whole of Palestine.

(16) We appeal to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building of its State and to admit Israel into the family of nations.

(17) In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions provisional or permanent.

(18) We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

(19) Our call goes out to the Jewish people all over theworld to rally to our side in the task of immigration and development and to stand by us in the great struggle for the fulfillment of the dream of generations the redemption of Israel.

(20) With trust in Almighty G-d we set our hand to this Declaration, at this Session of the Provisional State Council, in the city of Tel Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the fifth of Iyar, 5708, the fourteenth day of May, 1948.

[Last_Daze]

Respectfully, Volgadon, I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and I would also suggest that BenSalem is at very least walking the thin line of anti-semitism.

That said, while I do understand the modern political state of Israel to be a 'Jewish state', is it your position that we are to consider the modern political entity that is Israel to be the same, and coextensive with, the gathering of Israel mentioned in Judeo-Christian eschatology? I ask this in part because, as I am sure you know, there is serious disagreement even among modern Jews as to whether this is the case. Conservative and modern-Orthodox Jews generally see the modern political entity of Israel as having religious-escatological significance, while the Hasidim and Haredim generally want nothing at all to do with it precisely because it has no religious-eschatological significance.

Just wondering what your position is on that.