Polygamy Revisited

[Nathan6329]

I found another source that says Joseph Smith never believed in polygamy, but those closest to him claimed he did to make it part of the religion and he had fought against it, and that no courts could prove his plural marriage.

Edited January 28, 2011 by john doe
possible violation of rules. Tread lightly.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I found another source that says Joseph Smith never believed in polygamy, but those closest to him claimed he did to make it part of the religion and he had fought against it, and that no courts could prove his plural marriage.

It is known that many early polygamist kept there plural marriages secret due to the high level of persecution against the Saints. Joseph knew that man a enemy, were looking for any reason to imprison him again, polygamy would of provided them with there wish to have an excuse to arrest Smith again.

It doesn't justify him being deceitful but it does help explain why he did deny he was practicing polygamy for so many years!

[RipplecutBuddha]

Joseph struggled with polygamy for a long time before he even talked about it to anyone else. He was even warned by the Lord to begin adopting the practice or face very dire consequences.

So, was Joseph being deceitful, or was he struggling with a clearly difficult doctrine that he knew would cause more pain and sorrow for the people who believed he was a prophet?

Keep in mind that Christ has kept secrets before as well. The events on the Mount of Transfiguration were glorious and real. Nonetheless, on the way down the mountain, Christ told the apostles who witnessed the events (Peter, James, and John) to tell nobody until after His mission was complete.

So in reality, there could be three options here...Divine direction to keep it quiet for a time, deep personal struggle with 'an hard saying', or willful deceit.

Remembering that we are discussing not only a prophet of God, but the most significant prophet of God ever called, I would suggest we use caution in attempting to read Joseph's mind. Nobody can know why he made the decisions he made unless he tells us why.

[MormonMama]

The law of Jesus Christ is the higher law. And as detailed in the book of Mormon the Law of Jesus Christ is given to this land. If the higher law was polgamy we would be practicing it now. Zion must be established according to the laws of Jesus Christ.

So are you basically saying that Joseph Smith spoke falsely when he said that God had commanded him to reinstate plural marriage? That those involved in plural marriage in the early church were actually violating God's will? Would that not make Joseph Smith a false prophet at that point (as well as Brigham Young)?

You seem to assume that you are the only person here who has read the scriptures. I can assure you, you are not. I've lost count of how many times I have read the four standard works all the way through and I have come to a very different conclusion than you regarding polygamy. I have also lived in several different wards and stakes and find that most of the members, bishops and stake presidents I have discussed the issue with also have reached a very different conclusion than you.

You also really need to learn how to use the quote button. It's in the lower right corner of each person's post. It would make your posts much easier to read.

Edited January 31, 2011 by MormonMama

[Seminarysnoozer]

Personally I believe D&C 22 not D&C 132 Baptism is the new and everlasting covenant:)

If Baptism is the new and everlasting covenant then why did Christ not simply continue the law of carnal commandments that were already in place which included Baptism. He could have just kept going what John the Baptist was working on at the time, the preparatory Priesthood covenants. But He didn't, He brought a higher law and Priesthood. Baptism is part of the old law, Baptism in the new law is part of the beginning and not the last covenant.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Quote'Personally I believe D&C 22 not D&C 132 Baptism is the new and everlasting covenant:)

The New and Everlasting Coveanant is not eternal marriage or baptism. The New and Everlastig Coveanant is the Fullness of the Gospel that was restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

This is Gospel Prinicpals 101, without the fulbess of the Gospel you have no baptism or eternal marriage.

Also Section 132 demands eternal marriage to inherit gorging not polygamy. I don't know why some many people get that flat out wrong I'd your read 132 you plainly see what is written.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The New and Everlasting Coveanant is not eternal marriage or baptism. The New and Everlastig Coveanant is the Fullness of the Gospel that was restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

This is Gospel Prinicpals 101, without the fulbess of the Gospel you have no baptism or eternal marriage.

Also Section 132 demands eternal marriage to inherit gorging not polygamy. I don't know why some many people get that flat out wrong I'd your read 132 you plainly see what is written.

Yes, thats exactly what I said, the higher law brought by Christ which is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not just the preparatory law (law of Moses) that was used by John the Baptist.

[bert10]

Root causes of divorces are Illusions and deceptions which is darkness. "Unconditional Love" subdues and overcomes all things. For example finances does not have the power to affect "Unconditional Love" Since it is a giving love. All the stresses of the world cannot affect "unconditional love" only they who are in "Conditional Love" are affected by selfishness and finances etc. If both Spouses live "Unconditional Love" the marriage will never fail.

As for Polygamous marriages...only when God says so.

bert10

I agree with you, DeborahC. Thanks for your post.

I've opted to start a new thread to present some ideas my wife and I have been discussing about this lately. It's a long post, so please bear with me.

I find it interesting that the subject of Polygamy is gaining more of a foothold in everyday conversation throughout the world, and specifically right here at home in our North American region. The recent thread which started by quoting an article which was published in 2007 may seem to mitigate the level of attention this issue has come to gain within our society, however I would counter that in recent years we have had quite a bit of media attention being given to this subject. HBO's "Big Love" has been on for a few years now. TLC's "Sister Wives" is now gaining momentum. The discourse with respect to polygamist groups in Texas, Arizona, Colorado and other places (like Canada) in the news media has increased (at least in my eyes).

I tend to ask "why" whenever any topic is disseminated to us by the media. Given that the news media as a whole is controlled by only a few, elite individuals, I for one believe that what we see in our media doesn't just arrive there through circumstance or chance. It is purposefully and thoughtfully put before us.

First, I will say that I believe Polygamy to be an eternal principle and I believe it will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom, certainly, and likely during the Millenium. I also believe that each of us have our agency and no one is going to be forced to enter into a marriage relationship, monogamous or otherwise, against their will. Our understanding now, in our mortal state is so much less than it will be beyond the veil. There is so much knowledge to be gained; so much eternal wisdom yet to be discovered. Who of any of us can propose to judge the righteousness or worthiness of the principle of Polygamy in our mortal state here on earth and under our current state of preparation for such a practice?

Are there groups today practicing Polygamy illegally and for reasons that fly in the face of morality and good judgment? Certainly. Are there ENTIRE CULTURES today practicing Polygamy in which all parties are respected, nourished, loved, supported and whose families are stronger than many of our own here in our "Western", "enlightened" or "civilized" culture? Absolutely.

It's no debate that Polygamy has been practiced at various times throughout the history of mankind. In fact, up until just a few hundred years ago, the practice was more prolific worldwide than it even is today. It has only been in recent history, through the influence of the Catholic Church (gosh, they seem to be at the heart of a lot of major changes in world history, don't they? Hmm...) that the practice of Polygamy began to take a beating.

Having said all of this, I would like to present the following opinion.

Perhaps Polygamy is very much an eternal principle that Heavenly Father will re-establish among His kingdom as soon as He possibly can. Perhaps through Polygamy (the righteous entry into it, that is), we would see much stronger family units. We would see closer knit communities, we would see less divorce, less abuse and greater love and care given to our worthy and righteous mothers/wives and to our children.

Now, before some of you jump on me with quotes like this one:

I would like to answer that up front by encouraging care in putting words in the Lord's mouth. The proclamation specifically says, "...marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God..." and a few lines later says, "Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan." It does not say "between ONE man and ONE woman" only between A man and A woman. To assume that the singular expression of "A" is meant to imply an eternal principal of only a one to one relationship would be fallacic, in my opinion. The "...marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God..." is most certainly correct and I don't see how Polygamy, under righteous and approved circumstances, and properly re-instituted under the direction of the First Presidency or the Lord Himself would be in conflict with this statement.

Here's some of my logic.

Divorce has three primary root causes... 1) Infidelity, 2) Finances and 3) Selfishness (broad, yes... but supported by the words of at least one of our recent prophets)

In a properly and righteously functioning Polygamist marriage, logic would tend to lean toward a massive reduction in infidelity. Apart from quippy logic such as, "gosh, who would have the time to cheat if they had more than one wife?" or, "well, with all that sex going on in the marriage, no man would have the sexual drive or desire to stray for more"; I think there are some other, much more worthy and less anecdotal reasons for infidelity to decrease. Namely, a true and lasting marriage is one in which there is intimacy, understanding, love, kindness and many other Christlike attributes too numerous to mention. Monogamous couples spend their entire lives here on earth striving to master such a relationship. Many of us fall woefully short of meeting the emotional needs of our spouses (mostly the wives suffer). How much more emotionally supported would (or could) a woman be in an intimate relationship if they had sister wives... other women who can certainly relate to one another on ways that no man (or very, very few in my experience) could ever do. The biggest barrier to success in a Polygamist marriage, in my opinion, would be jealousy. But who is to say that with the blessings of the Lord and the blessings of temple ordinances, that each of us couldn't come to see the world and marital relationships through eyes other than jealous ones?

Jealousy, after all, is really a form of selfishness. Which leads me to one of the other "big three" causes of divorce I mentioned earlier. What better way to overcome selfishness but to ADD another spouse or spouses to the equation. Learning to meet the needs of not just one person, but 2 or more... and all of the additional children which would result from such a union. With the support of multiple mature adults in a loving, trusting, open and intimate relationship... imagine the amount of learning that could take place? Multiple people loving and trusting one another and able to see a problem or an issue from a different perspective... how wonderful would that be? Just think in your own marriages today how many times the two of you get all wrapped around the axle on a particular issue? You then bring in an outsider; a Bishop, a counselor, a trusted friend to look at your situation and offer advice from their perspective. How much easier might it be for a marriage with 4, 5 or even 6 adults bringing each of their own ideas, thoughts, inspirations and gifts into the equation? I'm not saying it would all be perfect and rosy all of the time, but I could certainly envision such a relationship, if conceived in righteousness and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be so rewarding and so much closer to the love and formation of community that Heavenly Father enjoys. (And yes, I believe our Heavenly Father has more than one wife... which actually might be another reason why we don't ever hear the name of Heavenly Mother spoken... something to think about, eh?)

And lastly, finances. Who is to say that one or more of the sister wives could not engage in income earning activities to help support the overall needs of the family. Nowhere in the Proclamation does it say that the man has to be the only one earning money. With multiple adults in the family community each pitching in with their strengths, how much stronger could that marriage and family become? I've found that women are natural entrepreneurs as well... how awesome to have 2, 3, or 4 women working together to come up with some cool business model to help earn income for the family... an income that could even make it easier for Dad to be home more... nurturing, caring, loving and raising his children in ways only a worthy patriarch and Priesthood holder can do?

I think we may be undergoing some preparatory phases on a road which eventually leads to the re-institution of Polygamy... sometime within most of our lifetimes right here on this forum. Clearly, the Lord is not going to be able to just tap on President Monson's shoulder next week and out of the blue reveal that Polygamy is now back in practice. There is going to have to be some groundwork laid. There are going to have to be societal and legal changes to take place. And there will have to have been a lot of dialogue, teaching and understanding to have taken place.

Are my wife and I ready to run out and start lobbying our leaders to re-institute this practice (as if that's even the way it works... ha ha)? Heck no. Would she and I even be "able" to live within a Polygamist model? That remains to be seen. But has our dialogue of the subject increased between us as a direct result of the attention it has been given in the media the past several years? Yes. Yes it has. And the results of our discussions have been very interesting. Very humbling. The subject keeps coming around for us again and again. Each time with a little deeper understanding; a little more open mindedness and a little more maturity.

Would love to hear the thoughts of the forum on this topic. I know it's been discussed before, but not in precisely the same way, nor with the same perspective that we have now in 2011.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Yes, thats exactly what I said, the higher law brought by Christ which is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not just the preparatory law (law of Moses) that was used by John the Baptist.

Christ restored the fullness of the Gospel he didn't bring it. The fullness of the Gospel has been with man since the time of Adam.

The fullness of the Gospel was given to Adam he was also ordained him into the Priesthood.

From this time forward the Gospel has been on the Earth but not always in it's fullness, due to Apostasy.

When Moses came on the scene he restored the fullness of the Gospel and lead the people out of Egypt to Canaan. He sent out 12 spies to learn the terrain so they could invade and take the promise land as God commanded them.

When 10 of the 12 came back and said it couldn't be done, the people rejected God's plan for them. Here is where they lost the fullness of the Gospel as well as the Melkesadek Priesthood. God being merciful and remembering his promise to the Hebrews made the Law of Moses to help prepare the Hebrews for the coming of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ came and restored the fullness the Hebrews lost when they rejected God's plan for them.

The Mosaic law contains the rituals of sacrifice and all the laws of uncleanliness, these are the predatory rituals that are not needed anymore.

The moral laws and the Commandments are still in effect though (Christ overcame the required punishments which were severe but the moral law still stands) and is a vital part of the fullness of the Gospel.

Just like the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, and the inspired words of the Modern Prophets are vital parts of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Christ didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Christ restored the fullness of the Gospel he didn't bring it. The fullness of the Gospel has been with man since the time of Adam.

The fullness of the Gospel was given to Adam he was also ordained him into the Priesthood.

From this time forward the Gospel has been on the Earth but not always in it's fullness, due to Apostasy.

When Moses came on the scene he restored the fullness of the Gospel and lead the people out of Egypt to Canaan. He sent out 12 spies to learn the terrain so they could invade and take the promise land as God commanded them.

When 10 of the 12 came back and said it couldn't be done, the people rejected God's plan for them. Here is where they lost the fullness of the Gospel as well as the Melkesadek Priesthood. God being merciful and remembering his promise to the Hebrews made the Law of Moses to help prepare the Hebrews for the coming of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ came and restored the fullness the Hebrews lost when they rejected God's plan for them.

The Mosaic law contains the rituals of sacrifice and all the laws of uncleanliness, these are the predatory rituals that are not needed anymore.

The moral laws and the Commandments are still in effect though (Christ overcame the required punishments which were severe but the moral law still stands) and is a vital part of the fullness of the Gospel.

Just like the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, and the inspired words of the Modern Prophets are vital parts of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Christ didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

Yes, I agree with all of that. Technically, it is brought by Christ in all dispensations. As it is called the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ it is simply easy to say brought by Christ. ... but yes you are right. Thanks for outlining that more specifically.

I was more trying to get her to think about her (Stacy) claim that Baptism is the new and everlasting covenant, then why would Christ fulfill that law and give a higher law at that time. Why wouldn't He just continue with what John the Baptist had in place?

Edited February 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Yes, I agree with all of that. Technically, it is brought by Christ in all dispensations. As it is called the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ it is simply easy to say brought by Christ. ... but yes you are right. Thanks for outlining that more specifically.

I was more trying to get her to think about her (Stacy) claim that Baptism is the new and everlasting covenant, then why would Christ fulfill that law and give a higher law at that time. Why wouldn't He just continue with what John the Baptist had in place?

Not a problem, I tend to make sure that all the details are presented because non members will always ask what we are talking about LOL