The Early Church

[Justice]

Due to recent threads about early Christian martyrs and non-Biblical authors (or pre-Nicene), I have been studying them again, hoping to relearn some things I learnd long ago. I never really studied much from the writings of Justin Martyr, but have been impressed by some of what I have read. I found a collection very well put together here:

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I

For instance, here's his take on the Eucharist (Sacrament) in the early Church from Justin:

Chapter LXVI.-Of the Eucharist.

And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a143 [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.144 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,145 this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,146 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,147 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,148 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Very interesting.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Yes, I love studying what we have of the earliest writings of the pre Nicene Church!

It is funny that we are persecuted as having weird traditions but you find many of our traditions are only the true traditions on the Church Jesus Christ set upon this Earth! The erosion of that truth happened slowly over time by the councils of men!

Of course to all Mormons we call this Great Apostasy!

[Justice]

Also, a fragment found claiming to have been writings of Peter. This is VERY interesting since it wasn't even discovered until 1880.

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. X

The fragment here translated was discovered in 1880 by the French Archaeological Mission in an ancient burying place at Akhmim in Upper Egypt. It was published at Paris in 1892 (Bouriant, Mèmoires publiès par les membres de la Mission Archèologique Francaise au Caire, T. ix., fasc. 1, 1892). The ms. is now in the Gizeh Museum and has been held to be of a date between the eighth and twelfth centuries.

Read how Peter describes seeing two messengers from beyond the grave, and his description of them:

4. And furthermore the Lord said: Let us go into the mountain: Let us pray.

5. And going with him, we, the twelve disciples, begged that he would show us one of our brethren, the righteous who are gone forth out of the world, in order that we might see of what manner of form they are, and having taken courage, might also encourage the men who hear us.

6. And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look;

7. for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance.

8. And as we looked upon them, we were astounded; for their bodies were whiter than any snow and ruddier than any rose;

9, and the red thereof was mingled with the white, and I am utterly unable to express their beauty;

10, for their hair was curly and bright and seemly both on their face and shoulders, as it were a wreath woven of spikenard and divers-coloured flowers, or like a rainbow in the sky, such was their seemliness.

11. Seeing therefore their beauty we became astounded at them, since they appeared suddenly.

12. And I approached the Lord and said: Who are these?

13. He saith to me: These are your brethren the righteous, whose forms ye desired to see.

Sound familiar?

[Jason_J]

Due to recent threads about early Christian martyrs and non-Biblical authors (or pre-Nicene), I have been studying them again, hoping to relearn some things I learnd long ago. I never really studied much from the writings of Justin Martyr, but have been impressed by some of what I have read. I found a collection very well put together here:

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I

For instance, here's his take on the Eucharist (Sacrament) in the early Church from Justin:

Chapter LXVI.-Of the Eucharist.

And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a143 [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.144 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,145 this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,146 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,147 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,148 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Very interesting.

Does he say elsewhere what the water was used for? For example, Catholics also bring bread, wine and water, and some water is poured into the wine. I don't know if Justin Martyr was referring to a similar practice. Also, he seems to be referring to a belief in "Real Presence" in the first paragraph, which, from what I understand, LDS do not believe in.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Jason_J

[Justice]

Yeah, it's just how you understand the word. We believe it as well, just that it's symbolic and not literal.

I did read somewhere where they mixed the water and wine, but can't recall exactly where. I've read a lot on that site in the last few days.

[LDSChristian]

Due to recent threads about early Christian martyrs and non-Biblical authors (or pre-Nicene), I have been studying them again, hoping to relearn some things I learnd long ago. I never really studied much from the writings of Justin Martyr, but have been impressed by some of what I have read. I found a collection very well put together here:

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I

For instance, here's his take on the Eucharist (Sacrament) in the early Church from Justin:

Chapter LXVI.-Of the Eucharist.

And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a143 [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.144 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,145 this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,146 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,147 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,148 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Very interesting.

I'm sensing the sacrament. :)

[LDSChristian]

Also, a fragment found claiming to have been writings of Peter. This is VERY interesting since it wasn't even discovered until 1880.

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. X

The fragment here translated was discovered in 1880 by the French Archaeological Mission in an ancient burying place at Akhmim in Upper Egypt. It was published at Paris in 1892 (Bouriant, Mèmoires publiès par les membres de la Mission Archèologique Francaise au Caire, T. ix., fasc. 1, 1892). The ms. is now in the Gizeh Museum and has been held to be of a date between the eighth and twelfth centuries.

Read how Peter describes seeing two messengers from beyond the grave, and his description of them:

4. And furthermore the Lord said: Let us go into the mountain: Let us pray.

5. And going with him, we, the twelve disciples, begged that he would show us one of our brethren, the righteous who are gone forth out of the world, in order that we might see of what manner of form they are, and having taken courage, might also encourage the men who hear us.

6. And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look;

7. for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance.

8. And as we looked upon them, we were astounded; for their bodies were whiter than any snow and ruddier than any rose;

9, and the red thereof was mingled with the white, and I am utterly unable to express their beauty;

10, for their hair was curly and bright and seemly both on their face and shoulders, as it were a wreath woven of spikenard and divers-coloured flowers, or like a rainbow in the sky, such was their seemliness.

11. Seeing therefore their beauty we became astounded at them, since they appeared suddenly.

12. And I approached the Lord and said: Who are these?

13. He saith to me: These are your brethren the righteous, whose forms ye desired to see.

Sound familiar?

Yep, similar to the First Vision.

[Justice]

And when Joseph Smith described Moroni as an angel, and when Oliver Cowdery described seeing heavely messengers.

[Jason_J]

Yeah, it's just how you understand the word. We believe it as well, just that it's symbolic and not literal.

I did read somewhere where they mixed the water and wine, but can't recall exactly where. I've read a lot on that site in the last few days.

I was just reading this person's reading of some of the ECFs on the Eucharist (perhaps an interesting read for LDS who don't hold to the Catholic/Orthodox belief that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ), and found this (from Justin Martyr):

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us eukaristia [the eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” (First Apology, 65-66)

[Jason_J]

Also, along the same lines, some may be interested in the book "Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Ancient Christianity" by Barry Bickmore. It references various early Christian writings that he sees as supporting LDS beliefs. It can be read in full at the link provided.

[Justice]

LOL Jason... that's the exact same thing I quoted above. :)

Thanks for the link to the book... I'll check it out.

[rameumptom]

Justin Martyr noted that the bread and water transmute into Christ's flesh and blood: this is more of a Catholic view than LDS view. Justin Martyr's views were strongly influenced by Greek philosophy, and by his time many varying interpretations of gospel concepts had appeared.

However, perhaps my favorite part of all of it (and it has been a few years since I've read Justin Martyr's discussions with Trypho), is where he explains to Trypho that the difference between Jews and Christians is that the Christians still have continued revelation, and if ever that revelation were to end, the Christian faith would be as dead as the Jewish faith.

[Jason_J]

LOL Jason... that's the exact same thing I quoted above. :)

Haha, it's almost the same, except this translation says that there is "wine mixed with water", instead of just "wine and water".