2 Esdras 13:39-50 (Apocrypha)

[LDSChristian]

39 And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;

40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.

41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.

43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.

44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.

45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.

46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,

47 The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.

48 But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.

49 Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.

50 And then shall he shew them great wonders.

After reading these verses it's much easier to see that some natives are descendants of Israelites even though people don't think they are.

[volgadon]

http://geo-tour.net/Europe/pic/russia/yu.jpg

[Dravin]

The timing is off for it to be Nephites or Mulekites*. The departure of Lehi is approximately 120 years in the future based on an initial Assyrian captivity starting at 740 BC and the final fall of the Kingdom of Israel under Hoshea (aka " Osea the king" mentioned in the section of Esadras you quote) at around 720BC and the Book of Mormon's start date of 600 BC.

Are you proposing a different migration? We certainly believe that the ten tribes are scattered and their blood has made it all sorts of places, travelling across the Euphrates would put them somewhere in Armenian Highland or Caucus Mountain Area or beyond.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Dravin

[volgadon]

travelling across the Euphrates would put them somewhere in Armenian Highland or Caucus Mountain Area or beyond.

See the map above. Also, there is plenty of folkloric evidence from Armenia, the Caucasus and southern Russia.

[LDSChristian]

The timing is off for it to be Nephites or Mulekites*. The departure of Lehi is approximately 120 years in the future based on an initial Assyrian captivity starting at 740 BC and the final fall of the Kingdom of Israel under Hoshea (aka " Osea the king" mentioned in the section of Esadras you quote) at around 720BC and the Book of Mormon's start date of 600 BC.

Are you proposing a different migration? We certainly believe that the ten tribes are scattered and their blood has made it all sorts of places, travelling across the Euphrates would put them somewhere in Armenian Highland or Caucus Mountain Area or beyond.

Where did I say anything about Nephites? I'm referring to Natives being descendants of Israelites as a whole, not just certain people.

[volgadon]

Where did I say anything about Nephites? I'm referring to Natives being descendants of Israelites as a whole, not just certain people.

"Natives" of what?

[Dravin]

See the map above. Also, there is plenty of folkloric evidence from Armenia, the Caucasus and southern Russia.

I'm afraid I don't know the Middle East well enough that a Russian map gives me much for bearings as the land outlines are foreign to me. Doing some back and forth looking between your map and another one it does look like you linked to the general area I mentioned. This looks to be the same area but conveniently (for me) in English. http://www.imec-usa.com/caucasus-mountains-map.gif

Where did I say anything about Nephites? I'm referring to Natives being descendants of Israelites as a whole, not just certain people.

Generally speaking when an American in an American heavy environment talks about natives they are talking about Native Americans unless specified otherwise. The fact that this is an LDS board with the subsequent belief in Israelites throwing their genetic contribution (how much a contribution probably depends on who you ask) into the native American genome also gives some bonus points in that direction.

Edit: Not saying you were talking about Native Americans, just explaining why your usage had me leaning that direction.

"Natives" of what?

Indeed, we're all natives of somewhere.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Dravin

[volgadon]

I'm afraid I don't know the Middle East well enough that a Russian map gives me much for bearings.

It is a map of southern Russia and the Caucasus.

Generally speaking when an American in an American heavy environment talks about natives they are talking about Native Americans.

I suspected as much, in which case LDSC's use of 2 Esdras makes little sense.

Indeed, we're all natives of somewhere.

Yes.