Why Would Anyone Who Believed In Christ..

[Holdyourfire]

Jenda: "My question is (I guess I have two questions). One, when you are experiencing manifestations of the Spirit such as what I wrote of, how can you consider yourself in spiritual bondage????"

HYF: You need to ask someone who still believes the Holy ghost is an external influence.

Here's my two cents anyway. I had a spritual experience so profound, that by direct comparison it it made sitting in the LDS church every week feel well... empty. Even though I had many LDS spritual experiences previous to that one, it was like night compared to the day. I'll go with the greater light hands down.

Just to clarify, my profound experience was distinctly religion free. It changed my beliefs across the board about God and everything I had been taught.

Jenda: "Two, when you are experiencing what the scriptures call gifts of the spirit, how can that be wrong? And even if you decide that you have found a better truth out there, how can people producing good fruit be wrong?

HYF: I believe that most religions do good works from a micro view point. From a macro view, religions produce conflicts, divisions among mankind, even wars given enough time. Overall, I think religions do more harm than good. There will always be good people doing good things even without religion sponsoring it. I hope these good doers are the same people despite what church they do or don’t belong to. Goodness is its own reward. It is not indicative of belonging to a "true" or "false" organization.

Jenda quoted:

Luke 9:49-50 (IV)

49 And John spake and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us.

Are you one to go against what Jesus said just because of your personal feelings? You better rethink that position because you are putting yourself in a position of judgment, and by whatsoever judgment you render, the same will be meted back to you."

HYF: Quoting scriptures like this to me is presuming that I hold them in the same light as you do. I don't. They are not Gods words to me. A casualty of Occam's razor I'm afraid.

I don't believe Jesus was what you believe him to be. We're both coming from very different places so the questions of going against Jesus don't exactly work for me.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 10:55 PM

From a macro view, religions produce conflicts, divisions among mankind, even wars given enough time. Overall, I think religions do more harm than good.

What a coincidence, so does Satan. Good, now you two have more than one thing in common. You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic.

[Holdyourfire]

Peace: Being in the church as you have...only shows that no one is exempt from falling away.

HYF: True. But change "Falling away" to "Graduating" Thanks.

I never had the burning of the bosom....I had Christ actually speak with me about my mission and what I was to do to prepare for it financially.

I don't believe that you have never had a burning of the bosom! It's the same as a burning in your heart. This is probably the most common and easiest occurring experience in the LDS church. All you have to do is sit and listen to a talented church speaker or bear your testimony. I recommend Paul H. Dunn.

You heard Jesus speak? In your head or externally -like from in front of you?

I don't believe you really understood what other's were experiencing....and that is because it is hard to put into words...the workings of the Spirit.

I agree. It seems to be a vague tool. Which leads me to ask why is God keeping the Holy Ghost on his payroll, if he can't testify to us of the truth in a clear and simple manner.

A positive belief can cause many to assume they have been given the confirmation...but when you really receive it...you won't be able to abandon the ship...believe me...even if you want to because things get rough.

Problem is, a false positive is not distinguishable from a real positive. Otherwise we would never have mistaken that a false positive was a real positive in the first place.

The result is that I am on that ship that I cannot abandon. Because I really…I mean REALLY did experience something I cannot ignore. Leaving the church IS a rough experience.

To quote Martin Luther King: <span style='color:blue'>"Here I stand, God help me, I cannot do otherwise"

[Jason]

Peace,

If you really had the experiences you are describing, you would'nt be bragging about them.

Jason

[Jason]

HYF,

I tried to have this "cant trust the spirit" discussion on this board a long time ago. Nobody seemed to care that it was unreliable. I talked about feeling the (warm fuzzy) spirit when I was doing something "sinful" and not knowing if that meant to stop, or go ahead.

Good luck on that topic.

[Jason]

Porter,

you said: "You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic."

Funny, you have yet to prove me a lost person! Unless your warm fuzzy tells you so...(or the voices in your head....or perhaps that crack pipe you've got hidden away....)

J

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 09:55 PM

HYF: Quoting scriptures like this to me is presuming that I hold them in the same light as you do. I don't. They are not Gods words to me. A casualty of Occam's razor I'm afraid.

I don't believe Jesus was what you believe him to be. We're both coming from very different places so the questions of going against Jesus don't exactly work for me.

Well, we have gotten to the meat of your post. Guess what? The same argument works in reverse! Because we are coming from such differing places, your arguments will have no effect on those of us who faithfully hold to the belief that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. So, tell me again why you are here?

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 3 2004, 11:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 3 2004, 11:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 10:55 PM

From a macro view, religions produce conflicts, divisions among mankind, even wars given enough time. Overall, I think religions do more harm than good.

What a coincidence, so does Satan. Good, now you two have more than one thing in common. You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic.

"Never attribute to Devil-worshipping conspiracies what opportunism, emotional instability, and religious bigotry are sufficient to explain."

--Shawn Carlson, Ph.D.

Satan and God are metphorical. Representing the good and bad sides of mankind. Man is to blame for the good and bad that religions bring.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 3 2004, 11:11 PM

Peace,

If you really had the experiences you are describing, you would'nt be bragging about them.

Jason

Jason, just because someone speaks of an experience, it in no way means that they are bragging. I, also, heard God speak to me. But I don't brag about it. Why? Because I didn't listen to it when it happened. And what He said would happen, happened. It could have in no way come from my pathetic little brain. So, I don't brag about it, in fact, I rarely mention it except for when I am feeling horribly guilty about the situation, which I still do 15 years later. So, just because you might brag about your experience, don't assume that everyone else does the same.

[Jason]

Jenda,

Where did I brag about a spiritual experience? And have you forgotten the NT already? Jesus said to "tell no man" about his miracles. So you and Peace have had what I call a "pseudo-epiphany"!

Jason

[Guest Starsky]

I don't believe that you have never had a burning of the bosom! It's the same as a burning in your heart. This is probably the most common and easiest occurring experience in the LDS church. All you have to do is sit and listen to a talented church speaker or bear your testimony. I recommend Paul H. Dunn.

That is called a swell of emotion...not burning of the bosom...and maybe it is because it is the easiest occurring experience...that I haven't had it...Nothing came the easy way for me.

You heard Jesus speak? In your head or externally -like from in front of you?

We had a conversation out loud....though I couldn't see Him. I felt His presence and heard His voice.

[Guest Starsky]

I agree. It seems to be a vague tool. Which leads me to ask why is God keeping the Holy Ghost on his payroll, if he can't testify to us of the truth in a clear and simple manner.

Anything worth while takes work, sacrifice, and surrender.

[Guest Starsky]

Problem is, a false positive is not distinguishable from a real positive. Otherwise we would never have mistaken that a false positive was a real positive in the first place.

The result is that I am on that ship that I cannot abandon. Because I really…I mean REALLY did experience something I cannot ignore. Leaving the church IS a rough experience.

I don't believe false and positive are posible...

What do you mean you are on that ship....and leaving the church is a rough experience?

If you were really on that ship you wouldn't leave it...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 3 2004, 11:11 PM

Peace,

If you really had the experiences you are describing, you would'nt be bragging about them.

Jason

Brag? LOL I was sharing. Showing others that it is possible.

Your take on everything is a downer...no wonders you are X jason...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 3 2004, 11:18 PM

Porter,

you said: "You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic."

Funny, you have yet to prove me a lost person! Unless your warm fuzzy tells you so...(or the voices in your head....or perhaps that crack pipe you've got hidden away....)

J

Like I said....you are some kind of downer...no wonders....you are X

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Mar 3 2004, 11:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Mar 3 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Mar 3 2004, 11:28 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 10:55 PM

From a macro view, religions produce conflicts, divisions among mankind, even wars given enough time. Overall, I think religions do more harm than good.

What a coincidence, so does Satan. Good, now you two have more than one thing in common. You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic.

"Never attribute to Devil-worshipping conspiracies what opportunism, emotional instability, and religious bigotry are sufficient to explain."

--Shawn Carlson, Ph.D.

Satan and God are metphorical. Representing the good and bad sides of mankind. Man is to blame for the good and bad that religions bring.

LOL you consider yourself created by a metaphor....LOL :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 3 2004, 11:42 PM

Jenda,

Where did I brag about a spiritual experience? And have you forgotten the NT already? Jesus said to "tell no man" about his miracles. So you and Peace have had what I call a "pseudo-epiphany"!

Jason

LOL...He didn't tell me not to tell.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 4 2004, 12:18 AM

Porter,

you said: "You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic."

Funny, you have yet to prove me a lost person! Unless your warm fuzzy tells you so...(or the voices in your head....or perhaps that crack pipe you've got hidden away....)

J

Oh come off it, every Anti I here speak uses the same cut and paste phrase "warm and fuzzies". There is nothing warm and fuzzy about it. It is not a PHYSICAL sense of security, it is a CONFIRMATION of the HOLY GHOST. No wonder you couldn't last in the church, you have a weak mind and a weak spirit. Oh well at least you are honest about not being capable of knowing God. Well, have fun with your CC buddies when Christ ascends from the heavens like a thief in the night and takes reign of His Kingdom on Earth. Course I don't know if burning counts as fun, but who knows. By the way, I hope the Pope has flame retardent clothes, I think it'll be mighty funny to see him aflame and rollin around, speakin all that latin with that big funny hat on. HAHAHAA makes me laugh just thinkin about it. What's also funny is the Popes of the past are sittin up in spirit prison, probably among the concorses of angry souls they led astray. That would make a good MadTV/SNL skit.

[Guest Starsky]

I don't think the Pope will burn...He has followed what he felt was the right thing to do and sacrificed his life to serve his fellow man.

[porterrockwell]

Would you agree that he at one point or another has had the opportunity to "look over" LDS doctrine? Also, he is the leader and foremost believer in infant baptism(which is evil), and also apart of a church that aslo worships saints and has perverted the repentance process. He heads the church that promotes life long celibacy for it's "Priesthood" members, thus desicrating the family and halting the progression of many...how can a man that LEADS all this not pay agregiously for his actions. In that same regard Saddam Hussien cannot burn because he probably never heard the Gospel. The Pope will also be found in his sins. And after having been exposed to the Restored Gospel, he is then accountable to accept it or deny it. Sorry, I would love to see all join who can, why do you think I get so passionate in my posts. But the Pope is a false prophet and the leader of a church that is fed by Satan. I'm sure there are many good, righteous people who are following to the best of their ability, but is not obedience to the truth part of righteousness. Eventually, all must be held accountable for what they hold to be true. Most ex-mormons or "mainstream christians" I come across are too puffed up to accept or re-accept the plain and simple truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Most know the Mormon church is the true church, but they choose not accept teachings that require such devotion and faith combined. Most have had a bad experience or had their feelings hurt, or some really bad line of reasoning. Either way, I have come to notice that most only wish to pay lipservice to the Lord and nothing more. They don't love him, they just want to glorify themselves THROUGH him. If you really love someone as you say you do, you would want that which is EXPECTED of you. Our Father in Heaven has commanded us to follow certain principles and ordinances to remain in his keep that we may one day recieve salvation. However, most people want to quickly say "I have accepted him in my heart, therefore today I am saved", add in a little instant spiritual "posturing" and you have the model "mainstream christian". They make me sick, they don't understand the true nature of the Plan, and they don't have regard for that which is sacred. I've come to find that eventually you just have to stop trying to share the Gospel with certain people and leave them to their own destruction. I guess they will be happy in the next life, as telestial beings. However, I will not be satisfied with anything less than exaltation, nor should anybody for that matter. One thing I don't get, is why so many Anti's in here, why don't you go join Christian Forums or something like that. At least their those of you who are Anti's will fit it with all the false doctrine and lipservice. Seriously, when are we gonna get a board that discuss Gospel Doctrine for the truth that it is?

[Guest Starsky]

I understand what you are saying...but only God Knows...and only God can judge...

Consider this scripture and the implications....

Jude 1: 8-9

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee....

AND ALSO:

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 3 2004, 11:42 PM

Jenda,

Where did I brag about a spiritual experience?  And have you forgotten the NT already?  Jesus said to "tell no man" about his miracles.  So you and Peace have had what I call a "pseudo-epiphany"! 

Jason

I do believe that Jesus was talking about telling no man that Jesus did it for him. I mean, once someone sees a once-lame person walking and jumping about, they will know that a miracle occurred. It is kind of impossible to keep something like that a secret. Or was the blind man who was given his sight supposed to pretend to be blind for the rest of his life?

Think about the ramifications of what you say before using it as an argument on a public board.

You can call it whatever you want, all you want, but that does not change the nature of what it was.

[Jason]

You guys should read Isaiah again. Pay special attention whenever you come across the word "pride".

J

[Holdyourfire]

I don't believe false and positive are posible...

False positives are not really possible. It merely alerts you to some kind of flaw in the testing methods. Like getting a false positive on a preganancy test. The strip says you are pregnant but you aren't.

Or, for instance, An over zealous fellow may know in his heart that god has told him that that hot girl in the singles ward is too be, by Gods decree, his future wife. When in fact the Girl is completely creeped out by the guy and there's is no possible way she will marry him. (I saw this a lot) There are many of these kinds of false positives in the church. I have been employed by people who ran their business based on prayers, rather that sound business practices. God, it seems, ran them into the ground. They saw it as a test. They continue to rely on God for the directions they should pursue in their next business ventures despite the double mortgages on their home, huge debts and inability to pay past taxes.

What do you mean you are on that ship....and leaving the church is a rough experience?

A positive belief can cause many to assume they have been given the confirmation...but when you really receive it...you won't be able to abandon the ship...believe me...even if you want to because things get rough.

I have "really" recieved my own experience that I cannot ignore. I too cannot abandon the ship it has put me on despite the roughness of leaving a previously adhered to belief system.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 4 2004, 12:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 4 2004, 12:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 09:55 PM

HYF: Quoting scriptures like this to me is presuming that I hold them in the same light as you do. I don't. They are not Gods words to me. A casualty of Occam's razor I'm afraid.

I don't believe Jesus was what you believe him to be. We're both coming from very different places so the questions of going against Jesus don't exactly work for me.

Well, we have gotten to the meat of your post. Guess what? The same argument works in reverse! Because we are coming from such differing places, your arguments will have no effect on those of us who faithfully hold to the belief that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. So, tell me again why you are here?

I think I need to clarify a little more about where I am coming from.

I believe in God, but not an external one.

I believe that I am God in every sense of the word.

That Man in his natural state is not a “God in embryo” as the church implies, but is all knowing and all powerful RIGHT NOW!

That when you are not in your physical body’s temporary, self-imposed limitations -You are GOD. YOU created the universe.

You are here right now because it was Gods Will, meaning your OWN WILL as a God. Your every choice is God’s will/your will. Any experience you have chosen to have here on earth is Gods choice/your choice. Hence –true free will with no asterisks or small print.

Mankind is operating under historical notions that are entirely incorrect. These notions are passed along generation after generation because they exist under the mistaken notion that they come from God, and are his requirements. Once labeled “Gods will”, mankind places an importance and authority on these things that cannot be questioned because it just IS. Almost everyone operates under these incorrect systems. We get them second hand from our parents and from the world.

This is what Jesus was trying to get across to mankind. Jesus was not different than you or me. -And Buddha, too for that matter. They are just humans/Gods who understood their own divine nature. Naturally, they wanted to free man from the incorrect and un-necessary beliefs that stopped them from knowing and operating from their true nature.

That is the PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH that Jesus was trying to show, but it has become so horribly misconstrued by time and religion. Religion is merely what mankind thinks an external God requires of them verses what just is. -“Ye are GODS” already.

Why am I here in LDS chat?

I'm pulling the mask off "the old lone ranger" so to speak.