Baptism For The Dead

[Jason_J]

[2]God has given a way for everyone to te ceive or reject Jesus, Everyone will know the gospel before they die, Except for those in the remotest places who may never hear the gospel.

The underlined is not in the Bible.

God has found a way for all to receive or reject, WHY DID YOU SAY HE HASN'T??

Members of the Lord's Church believe that God has provided a way for all to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they did not have the opportunity to do so in this life, they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ in the next.

[3] I think you should take a look at Acts 17: 30 and tell me what it says,

ARE YOU CALLING GOD A LIAR.

Acts 17:30 doesn't say what you are saying it says. Nor does the context of the chapter support your interpretation.

[Jason_J]

I am a person who believes the Bible and eccepts the truth in it.

As do Latter-day Saints.

[jlf9999]

Livingstone

As you might have guessed by now, members on this site have heard all this before and generally are well schooled in it. It is nothing new. We hear it all the time. Sometimes we get a bit short with new comers who come here thinking to convert all us heathen Mormons with what we understand is a less than well understood version of bible teaching. Others like me, have had their own blogs and discussed these things many many times before. Many of us attended church universities, attended four years of seminary and are returned missionaries. Some have advanced degrees in religion and have studied this stuff for decades. We hope not to be offensive but sometimes are. I apologize if I have given offense.

Edited April 21, 2011 by jlf9999

[livingstone]

Livingstone

As you might have guessed by now, members on this site have heard all this before and generally are well schooled in it. It is nothing new. We hear it all the time. Sometimes we get a bit short with new comers who come here thinking to convert all us heathen Mormons with what we understand is a less than well understood version of bible teaching. Others like me, have had their own blogs and discussed these things many many times before. Many of us attended church universities, attended four years of seminary and are returned missionaries. Some have advanced degrees in religion and have studied this stuff for decades. We hope not to be offensive but sometimes are. I apologize if I have given offense.

People do get offensive when they hear the real truth, "The Bibles's truth".

I don't care what degree you have, If what you believe doesn't match what the Bible says, It isn't of God.

You tell me how the mormens started, And I will tell you if they are of God or the devil.

[livingstone]

As do Latter-day Saints.

You say you believe the Bible, But do you know what it says??.

God warns of the dangers of adding to His word. "WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THOSE VERSES"??

[livingstone]

See 1 Corinthians 15 (especially verse 29). Paul uses the practice of baptisms for the dead to prove that there is a resurrection.

But, proper interpretation of Malachi 4 (especially verses 5-6) gives you the foundation for salvation after one dies coupled with Hebrews 11 (especially verse 40). It is basically telling you that Elijah will be sent by God in the fullness of the dispensation of times to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and their children to their fathers... or, in layman terms - that all generations of men will be sealed together in the last dispensation because, as implied by Hebrews 11:40 - it is together with the living that the dead may be made perfect.

This sealing has to be available for the dead - how else are you going to seal Abraham/Noah/David/etc. etc. to all the generations until the end times? Otherwise, as Malachi 4:6 warns - we are indeed cursed.

Livingston... God has given a way for everyone to accept or reject Jesus YES. THERE IS NO EXCEPT about it. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE that says there is an EXCEPTION. When God said everyone, He meant EVERYONE. YES, the gospel will be preached to all the world before the end!

But... PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DIED! And it's not the end yet! And they haven't heard of Jesus Christ!

I never said He hasn't! YOU said He gave exceptions for the Igorots - because, they died before they even heard of JESUS! No He didn't! There are no exceptions!

And that's why I've been trying to tell you... God gave a way for Igorots to accept or reject Jesus Christ after they die. They are taught the gospel after death. They are baptized by a living proxy and they are then asked to accept or reject that baptism. This will be accomplished for all mankind from Adam to the last man on earth "before the end".

I didn't call God a liar. I only said your interpretation of that verse is lacking.

[1] Paul wasn't making a doctrine of baptising for the dead in 1 Cor 15: 29. He was just stating the fact of the resurrection. And some people were doing baptism for the dead.

You need at least two scriptures to build a Biblical doctrine And 1 Cor 15: 29 isn't one of them.

So Two Bible scriptures that sa you can be baptised for the dead.

[2]What has Malachi 4: 5-6 and Heb 11: 40, Got to do with having a chance after death.

Malachi 4:5--6 is talking about John the baptist, He came to prpare the way for Jesus.

Yopu are twisting what the Bible says,

That is a sign of a false cult.

[3] Show me where the Bible says people get a chance after death.

I want clear scriptures,[At least two], The Bible says, By two or three witnesses let every word be established, So At least two scriptures please.

[livingstone]

The underlined is not in the Bible.

Members of the Lord's Church believe that God has provided a way for all to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they did not have the opportunity to do so in this life, they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ in the next.

Acts 17:30 doesn't say what you are saying it says. Nor does the context of the chapter support your interpretation.

[1]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say we have a chance after death.

[2]Read what Acts 17: 30 says, DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT SAY. God overlooks ignorance??

Until one hears and knows the gospel, They are ignorant, But having said that, Everyone has the chance to hear the gopsel, God has lots of ways of getting His word out to people.

And once a person hears the gospel, They have to respond in this life.

[livingstone]

Yep, you're a Mormon... as far as it is interpreted correctly. :)

I am a born again Spirit filled tongue talking child of God who moves in the gifts of the Spirit.

I believe the whole Bible and Sola scriptura.

I am a Saint and it is the latter days.

So in the Biblical way I am a true and proper later day saint.

[livingstone]

The underlined is not in the Bible.

Members of the Lord's Church believe that God has provided a way for all to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they did not have the opportunity to do so in this life, they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ in the next.

Acts 17:30 doesn't say what you are saying it says. Nor does the context of the chapter support your interpretation.

[1] The underlined is in the Bible. Matt 24: 14. Matt 28: 18--20.

The Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers and disciples took the gospel all over the world.

The gospel and the power of God has always been in the TRUE CHURCH, And always will be.

Today God has many ways of getting the gospel out to the people, We have satalight TV, we have the internet, And we have fast airoplanes to get us around the world to preach the gospel.

[2]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say people have a chance after they die.

You have made a statement, So back it up with scriptures.

And not 1 Cor 15: 29, Becaue Paul wasn't making a doctrine out of baptisms for the dead.

Why he said what he said, was There was a group of people who were baptising for the dead, So paul just stated the fact,,

"If there is no resurrection, Why do you baptise for the dead".

Not only that, But you need at least two scripturs to build a doctrine, And there is no scriptures that state you can baptise for the dead.

I came on this forum to see what LDS believe, And I can see that they don't believe the Bible, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THIS FORUM FOR A DAY YET.

[Guest]

[i came on this forum to see what LDS believe, And I can see that they don't believe the Bible, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THIS FORUM FOR A DAY YET.

Livingstone... We believe the Bible. We don't believe YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

A PERFECT GLARING EXAMPLE:

You mentioned these verses several times already:

Revelation 22:18

(New International Version)

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book."

You interpret that to mean THE ENTIRE HOLY BIBLE. This is a flawed interpretation. The BOOK mentioned in that verse is the Book of Revelations which has not been added to or subtracted from by anybody - LDS or not.

Evidence: The Book of Revelations - and that verse - was written a very long time BEFORE the Holy Bible was compiled.

So, how about you explain WHERE IN THE BIBLE it says that it contains the complete Words of God and not to add or subtract from it.

[Jason_J]

You say you believe the Bible, But do you know what it says??.

God warns of the dangers of adding to His word. "WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THOSE VERSES"??

The verses in question, from Deuteronomy and Revelation, state not to add or take away from "this book". "This book" clearly cannot refer to "The Bible" since "the Bible" was not compiled at the time those books were written. The Bible is a collection of individual books that was compiled years after each individual book was written.

So, Latter-day Saints completely agree with what those verses state. We do not add or take away from the Book of Revelation or Deuteronomy. That is what those verses actually mean, since the Bible as "a book" did not exist at the time God revealed those verses.

Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Also, your interpretation would cause quite a problem if Deuteronomy 4:2 meant not to add or take away from "the Bible", since clearly other books were written after Deuteronomy was written, so how could they add these books to "the Bible" if God said not to add to "the Bible"? Clearly that's not what is meant, but it means not to add or take away from the book that the warning is found in, and not "the Bible", since it wasn't even compiled at the times those verses were written (unless you're saying the Bible just fell out of the sky with 66 books).

[Jason_J]

[1] The underlined is in the Bible. Matt 24: 14. Matt 28: 18--20.

Here is the portion of what you said that I underlined:

"God has given a way for everyone to te ceive or reject Jesus, Everyone will know the gospel before they die, Except for those in the remotest places who may never hear the gospel."

You are making an exception to what God has stated for those that live in "the most remotest places who may never hear the gospel". Such an exception is not found in the Bible, and neither Matt 24:14 nor Matt 28:18-20 substantiate the underlined portion of your statement. Also, you had previously quoted Acts 17:30 as saying that God overlooks ignorance, when the actual verse says no such thing (in fact, it says the opposite).

[2]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say people have a chance after they die.

You have made a statement, So back it up with scriptures.

And not 1 Cor 15: 29, Becaue Paul wasn't making a doctrine out of baptisms for the dead.

Why he said what he said, was There was a group of people who were baptising for the dead, So paul just stated the fact,,

"If there is no resurrection, Why do you baptise for the dead".

Not only that, But you need at least two scripturs to build a doctrine, And there is no scriptures that state you can baptise for the dead.

Uh, of course I can refer to 1 Corinthians 15:29. Baptism for the dead is being referred to, and the Lord's restored Church is the only Church that still practices baptism for the dead as the ancient Christians did.

There's also 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:19, John 5:25, etc.

I came on this forum to see what LDS believe, And I can see that they don't believe the Bible, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THIS FORUM FOR A DAY YET.

Sorry, we don't believe in your interpretation of the Bible (especially when we see you citing verses that have nothing to do with what we are discussing, or verses that state the opposite of what you claim they say), however we most certainly believe in the Bible.

[Jason_J]

I am a born again Spirit filled tongue talking child of God who moves in the gifts of the Spirit.

I believe the whole Bible and Sola scriptura.

I am a Saint and it is the latter days.

So in the Biblical way I am a true and proper later day saint.

Except of course that "sola scriptura" is found nowhere in the Bible itself.

[Jason_J]

[1]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say we have a chance after death.

Already done. Also, it is not that we all have a second chance after death, but that those that did not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel in this life will have that chance in the next, as a fair and just God would do.

[2]Read what Acts 17: 30 says, DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT SAY. God overlooks ignorance??

Until one hears and knows the gospel, They are ignorant, But having said that, Everyone has the chance to hear the gopsel, God has lots of ways of getting His word out to people.

And once a person hears the gospel, They have to respond in this life.

I already showed you what Acts 17:30 actually says:

30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Clearly it says that in the past God overlooked "such ignorance", but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Nowhere in this verse does it give an exception from repenting for the "ignorant".

Also, the "ignorance" that is being referred to in verse 30 (the ignorance that God used to overlook in the past) is not some generic "ignorance", but the context is given in verse 29-"Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill."

Also, now you're saying that "everyone has the chance to hear the gospel", yet before, you were saying that God gives an exception for those in the remotest of places. Which is it?

[RipplecutBuddha]

[1] Paul wasn't making a doctrine of baptising for the dead in 1 Cor 15: 29. He was just stating the fact of the resurrection. And some people were doing baptism for the dead.

You need at least two scriptures to build a Biblical doctrine And 1 Cor 15: 29 isn't one of them.

So Two Bible scriptures that sa you can be baptised for the dead.

Paul was arguing for the reality of a literal physical resurrection. This was a belief that apparently the Corinthians had trouble accepting, else why would Paul spend time explaining it? So, in order to give strength to his argument for a belief that was questioned, he used another belief connected with a regular practiced ritual that was already accepted by the audience. What practice did he use to support a literal physical resurrection? Proxy baptism.

In short, the Corinthians knew of, and accepted proxy baptism as a correct part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they weren't so sure about a physical resurrection. So here's Paul doing everything he can to help them see that the resurrection is real, and in the process, he uses a part of the Gospel they already accept to illustrate his point.

How do I know they accepted proxy baptism as a correct Gospel principe? Because it would be useless to cite a pagan, heathen, or other non-Gospel religious practice in support of a questioned Gospel principle.

[volgadon]

It is kind of like attempting to convince southern Baptists of reincarnation, citing as support the practices of some Tibetan Budhists. Was Paul really that inept?

[Snapz]

Eh since Baptisms for the dead were practiced through the original church up through about 400 a.d. I believe Paul was speaking of literal baptisms for the dead. Not necessarily a latter-day saint thing... I just googled and bing'd the history of baptisms for the dead, ignored all the useless forum talk and just looked for documentary information ... guess everyone can have opinions on what Paul thought or meant ... but, I'd rather be safe than sorry ... if it's not real then... well -- no harm done ... if it is real, a lot of good done.

[volgadon]

Well, one of the Kievan princes exhumed the corpses of two uncles and had them baptised, that is sprinkled.

[daplautz]

livingstone, you are sounding more and more like a mormon. You may be one and not know it.

Closet-Mormon!?!

Edited April 24, 2011 by daplautz

[arvoreen73]

Luke 9:60-62

New International Version (NIV)

60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”

62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

baptizing the dead doesn't help the dead go to heaven. Their chance to get to heaven is here now on earth, this is why we need to preach the word of God. To save as many people as possible because after you die here on earth then there is no turning back

Edited June 29, 2011 by arvoreen73

[jlf9999]

I appreciate your comments but I am afraid there is more to the story than you may have been taught. I am pressed for time right now but just for the fun of it, go visit this site and search for the subect. Mormon.org or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage if you want to challenge yourself a bit. You are not the first person to have been told just part of the story.

[xXTekXx]

baptizing the dead doesn't help the dead go to heaven. Their chance to get to heaven is here now on earth, this is why we need to preach the word of God. To save as many people as possible because after you die here on earth then there is no turning back

I believe the point he was making here was about the necesity of haste in preaching the gospel and had nothing to do with baptism for the dead. This is evident when we look at the preceding verse.

KJV Luke 9

59. And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the aplough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[Jason_J]

baptizing the dead doesn't help the dead go to heaven. Their chance to get to heaven is here now on earth, this is why we need to preach the word of God. To save as many people as possible because after you die here on earth then there is no turning back

So what happens to all the billions of people throughout the ages that have never heard about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, and therefore never had the chance to accept Him? What happens to them? And what is the basis for your belief in what happens to them?

[arvoreen73]

So what happens to all the billions of people throughout the ages that have never heard about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, and therefore never had the chance to accept Him? What happens to them? And what is the basis for your belief in what happens to them?

I believe that is when his Mercy comes in. They never had a chance to know and believe in Him so I believe it is an automatic pass to Heaven

[volgadon]

I believe that is when his Mercy comes in. They never had a chance to know and believe in Him so I believe it is an automatic pass to Heaven

A fine belief, but one then wonders why preach at all?