"Evil Spirit"

[Justice]

Justice,

This is interesting. You want to limit the discussion to scripture but you and seminarysnoozer will not accept any interpretation of scripture which indicates there was choice during our first estate, including some interpretation from modern day prophets and apostles.

Moreover, if there is a scripture that indicates agency you want to detach it from choice. You want to say that God's children may have had agency but that he limited the exercise of the very agency they had.

Sounds like you've boxed the word of the Lord in nicely. As you said, very simple.

I never said there wasn't a choice or choices, or that we did not have agency... clearly we did.

I think it's just a misunderstanding. I'm not explaining myself clearly. I said God never gave us permission to exericise our agency to make unwise choices until the Garden of Eden, because the plan had not been implemented far enough for us to be redeemed from those types of bad choices. When He placed man in the Garden of Eden, He said "thou mayest choose for thyself." We HAD agency in the pre-mortal existence, and choices were available, but that's very different than being given the permission to choose them because God knew the consequences of such choices in our "current" condition at the time. That's why, in my view, God said He "gave" man his agency in the Garden of Eden.

Very different, if you read it slowly.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

I know you believe all scriptures about opposition and choice pertain to mortality. However, let me simply consider this same verse (15). As you have rightly pointed out after he created our first parents...it must needs be that there was an opposition. But God created all things spiritually before they were physically on the earth (Moses 3:7). Therefore, according to this very scripture, to bring about his eternal purposes this opposition needed to occur after they were created spiritually. Not just physically.

Here is the difference though, I don't think God created opposition. He gave an opportunity for man to be an agent unto himself which led to a state in which there is opposition. If God created opposition spiritually then who fell spiritually in the permortal existence at our spiritual creation to make that happen? You are introducing a lot of supposition that is not part of our teaching.

By the way, I didn't say "all scripture about choice", that was your interpretation of what I said, I just said 'opposition'. I have said several times, which you ignore, that choice can be present without opposition. That is the point that I think if you can accept then you wouldn't be so strict on your definitions. If a person can choose to be more or less valiant, that does not imply that there has to be opposition. That could simply imply that that is the measure of one's spiritual character. That person does not have it in them to be more valiant or less valiant. It is the set of spiritual characteristics obtained at their spiritual birth that determines such features after and while they are developed to their mature state. ... that does not imply opposition even though it includes choice and agency. Agency, which is different then being an agent unto oneself.

If a young man goes to boot camp to prepare for war. He might be taught to be brave and not leave any of his fellow soldiers behind and to even "jump on a grenade" if needs be. He might be taught to fight hard, etc. But during boot camp, even with learning all those things, what grenade was he faced with that he had to "jump on"? What soldier got left behind that he went back for? What fight did he fight, while in boot camp? And yet some soldiers were probably more 'valiant' in their efforts than others. They may have worked harder in their preparations, both mentally and physically. So, when the time came to actually fight the enemy they were more ready than the ones who didn't prepare as well. So, what enemy did we face in the premortal existence? Yes, there were some that opted out of the battle before it was began as they weren't even willing to fight the battle, the price was too high. Then they became angry and became the enemy. But for the rest of us, what enemy did we face in the premortal world? None. Until the fork in the road was presented but even then, there was a war of words over the plan but there was no struggle to avoid deception, it was a choice. Here, the battle is fought and will end here.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[james12]

Sounds like the Father's plan for his spirit children before the Fall has now been determined. Here are the high points.

Growth Without Opposition - A spirit son or daughter of God was able to learn and be valiant without having to make choices between good and evil. This way one progressed without consequences.

Agency Without Freedom - We possessed agency and choice but were not allowed to exercise these abilities. This is because the Plan of Redemption was not yet put into place.

Consequences Without Knowledge - Although Satan and his followers were eternally dammed from progressing they did not posses a clear knowledge of good and evil. The justice of God is a little hard to understand here but clearly we were all innocent so it must be.

For a while I got confused and started to think there was opposition, freedom, and knowledge during our first estate but now it's clear.