Do You Dream (Spiritual) Dreams?

[Seminarysnoozer]

The suggestion isn't that the output of faithful function is endowment of keys. That His truth can be give by one to another, it is an output of the function of our servitude, accepting His input. Those of a worthy faith receive His truths as input and outputs them the same; uncorrupted.

Yes! This was my exact argument from the beginning, to receive such things "uncorrupted". The act of REM sleep dreaming (as opposed to having a vision/dream while conscious) is by it's anatomy corrupted.

[pntkl]

I agree that there is likely a certain distinction between one and the other. My wife has seizures, has had them since she fell from the lip of a pickup truck's bed railing and suffered a depression skull fracture. She had a long-term EEG, while she was pregnant with my youngest daughter. The epitologist that administered it, he was of the admission how little science knows about brain function or even consciousness.

However, I can't say definitively by what state or level of consciousness or subconsciousness our Father speaks to us, in absolution. In that regard, it simply isn't fathomable, at least to myself, either way. I am aware of certain beliefs of the separation of self, such as the idea of a lower, middle, and higher self; even that there are beliefs that subconsciousness is part of that line of thinking. In any such way, I couldn't say; I would be afraid to play.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree that there is likely a certain distinction between one and the other. My wife has seizures, has had them since she fell from the lip of a pickup truck's bed railing and suffered a depression skull fracture. She had a long-term EEG, while she was pregnant with my youngest daughter. The epitologist that administered it, he was of the admission how little science knows about brain function or even consciousness.

However, I can't say definitively by what state or level of consciousness or subconsciousness our Father speaks to us, in absolution. In that regard, it simply isn't fathomable, at least to myself, either way. I am aware of certain beliefs of the separation of self, such as the idea of a lower, middle, and higher self; even that there are beliefs that subconsciousness is part of that line of thinking. In any such way, I couldn't say; I would be afraid to play.

In a way, it doesn't really matter how He would speak to us but the bottom line is that for it to be of use here in this world it has to be used in consciousness. The final, putting the letter in the mailbox, so-to-speak, has to be consciousness. There is a veil that prevents our spiritual remembrance. If it is simply a lifting of the veil, then why wouldn't all the premortal memory coming flooding in. If it did, then it really isn't a message, it is simply remembering. So, for the "message" to be useful it has to be registered in the consciousness.

As soon as any of the past prophets come back from their "dreams" or visions or visitations they have to recall such information using the wiring of the brain. They would have to describe such events using the language centers of the brain, the dominate hemisphere wernicke to broca's area circuitry. They would have to use the visual association cortex, the mind's eye, to describe such events. etc. All those wirings are corrupted. The vision already is not exactly how it was received and experienced. It is translated to a corrupted description which puts it into its consumable form for the rest of us.

When the Holy Ghost speaks to our spirit, the spirit of our self still has to communicate to our consciousness for it to be of use in this life. The purity of that communication is dependent on spirituality but even then I doubt that it comes close to the original complexity of the message when it finally gets stored away in the memory circuits of the brain. This is probably why King Benjamin asked his people to "remember to retain" as opposed to just "remember" or just "retain". We have to work at remembering to retain ... like the fleeting and fading memory of a dream.

[pntkl]

1 Timothy 1:1-20 

Hi I'm Terrance James Wood | Mormon | 5RZ3

There is but one act, that pierces the veil. This I know, because, our Savior shewed this to me. I wrote about it, in my mormon.org profile, quite some time ago.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[pntkl]

It is translated to a corrupted description which puts it into its consumable form for the rest of us.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13*

To clarify, just because there has to be a transliteration, from spirit to flesh, that doesn't necessitate that the message is corrupted. A message from our Father in heaven is incorruptible, as it is delivered as He ordained it. The corruption would occur, if the messenger added their own selfish desire, and by effect, it would not be His message. This is important.

The importance to recognize is that when we share the spiritual gifts we have, to be in service to others; it is not corrupt. By selflessness, it is pure, it is as God intends it. When God has a message for us, it is perfect. In the delivery to the messenger, to know that the messenger would not mess it up, that it is transliterated from spirit to flesh, the process is perfect, as it is His process.

Then, there are messages He has for the individual, yet meant for that individual. To offer it to others, especially if we are told not to, that is corruption. Even so much as to render the message indecipherable, to third parties. Worse yet, it is to water down one's own personal revelation. To try such a thing is to place oneself in danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Edited April 30, 2012 by pntkl
Typo

[Seminarysnoozer]

1 Corinthians 13:1-13*

To clarify, just because there has to be a transliteration, from spirit to flesh, that doesn't necessitate that the message is corrupted. A message from our Father in heaven is incorruptible, as it is delivered as He ordained it. The corruption would occur, if the messenger added their own selfish desire, and by effect, it would not be His message. This is important.

The importance to recognize is that when we share the spiritual gifts we have, to be in service to others; it is not corrupt. By selflessness, it is pure, it is as God intends it. When God has a message for us, it is perfect. In the delivery to the messenger, to know that the messenger would not mess it up, that it is transliterated from spirit to flesh, the process is perfect, as it is His process.

Then, there are messages He has for the individual, yet meant for that individual. To offer it to others, especially if we are told not to, that is corruption. Even so much as to render the message indecipherable, to third parties. Worse yet, it is to water down one's own personal revelation. To try such a thing is to place oneself in danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

Love,

T.J. Wood

I disagree. "Corruption" doesn't equate to evil. It just applies to our fallen state. Even Paul stated in the scripture you gave that we still look through the glass darkly. Paul, with his thorn in his flesh know this better than anyone. He yearns for the day that he can see clearly, after the "giving of his body to be burned". By putting off the carnal, then we can see clearly.

Of course, we are not really talking about the "message" as you wish it to be. We are talking about the person's description of the message after it is received. Which, by then is in its corrupted transliteration.

The blessing of the message often comes in the form of the skill in recognizing the part that comes from the corrupted flesh versus the promptings of the spirit more than even the "facts" of the message itself. One of the biggest things that came from the first vision was the fact that such communication still exists and is done through one who has been given preparation (pre-ordination) to do so.

The benefit of the opportunity to obtain the knowledge of good and evil is to discern the difference. This is why Satan's most powerful tool is in mimicry. Things that sound intellectually pleasing (which by-the-way is a passion of the body) is the way the learned man is deceived. The carnal passion for superior intellect can overpower the drive for wisdom and spiritual discernment which really is the main goal. To understand what comes from the body (carnal corrupted sources) versus what comes from the spirit is one of the main reasons to come here and receive death. All the intellectualism occurred before this life.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[pntkl]

Speaking of corruption as moral depravity, that is wicked at best and at worst evil. Not simply because I would state it. As mutually agreed upon terms, their definitions are similes for some and a facsimile for others, concerning one another. A corrupt message deceives the recipient(s). Some in these days find hopes and wishes to be the same--they are not. Wishes are seated in fables and old wives-tales, such as the genie in a bottle. Hopes are seated with our Father, for whose name none could contain or contend--not a strong man, sorcerer, an army on this earth, nor any spirit(s) within all of the heavens. His messages offer hope, which is looking forward to His promises. They strengthen the faith of even one or many, as He is our Strong Deliverer; from sin and also of His messages, of which they are both binding to our covenants, that we would feed our needs with His Word. I am speaking about the message, as it is intended: proceeding from the fount of every blessing, wherewith His Love pours most charitably on men, like stones under rushing water. The darkness that is seen, through the glass, it is from the mix of good and bad that we roll with, through the progression of mortality, for each with varying mixtures that becomes accumulated with both extremes. Even when He is filled with wrath, His messages are always delivered, as He intended.

Our Father purposes that a message is given, to be pure, as He is perfect; never failing. After it has been received, the message itself is still clearly received as it was intended. A person or group's denial or manipulation of that message is beholden to the seat of corruption. Yet, it isn't that His message was ever imperfect, in and of itself, nor are His messengers lacking anything spiritual necessary, that the recipient(s) do not heed. Most confounding, for so many, is that He already knows what decisions will be made, what paths we take. Not everyone would agree with me on that, however, His power is absolute, even knowing beyond an eternity: the moment of what is; He is the paradoxical other; the Great I AM. His grace is also oft misstated, that it is within any man's dictation, for what it should or shouldn't be. So foreign is it, to the mortal, that there aren't words strong enough to describe Him or His Love for us, that we may find Him so giving.

None of this journey is ever only a carnal matter, that which is of the flesh. In all ways, its purpose is both temporal and spiritual; it is eternal. For all intents and purposes, in wrath or in grace, He has one overwhelming message, "Return to Me, the Father of all Creation. Prepare for the Day. Be reconciled while in the mortal to avoid being sieved [plucked out] in the immortal. Doing so, so you may find perfection, even to walk again with the Most High, even to be as He is, perfect." Our choices aren't singular, in one or the other, they are one along with the other, co-dependent parts, temporal on spiritual and vice versa, both conjunct. In any case, our parts becoming whole wouldn't need be a transfiguration by Atonement, being resurrected by His Son, if we were free of all corruption. This is the dilemma of man, that corruption is not only born from the body, for in and of itself is but a vessel, a temple built by God, that our spirits are placed into, ultimately meant for a symbiosis, so that we may receive His messages and serve others having loosed. By this state of being, all of what makes us what we are can find itself given to corruption, even to temptations of man's adversaries, for which a believer has nothing in common with. It is a parasite that stress tests our whole being, picks apart the senses, and when given into deprives us of our reception of purity. It threatens both our inheritance of the next estate and our willing reunion with the first. Finally, however long-winded, even though among the exalted are few, if one is faithful beyond vain words alone, it is thereby we receive the promises of His Son, that all in acceptance receive everlasting life and more. To corrupt His messages, even the writs and decrees all believers are charged with spreading, that to be found without faith and up to blaspheme, for which your affiant further sayeth naught.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Seminarysnoozer]

Speaking of corruption as moral depravity, that is wicked at best and at worst evil. Not simply because I would state it. As mutually agreed upon terms, their definitions are similes for some and a facsimile for others, concerning one another. A corrupt message deceives the recipient(s). Some in these days find hopes and wishes to be the same--they are not. Wishes are seated in fables and old wives-tales, such as the genie in a bottle. Hopes are seated with our Father, for whose name none could contain or contend--not a strong man, sorcerer, an army on this earth, nor any spirit(s) within all of the heavens. His messages offer hope, which is looking forward to His promises. They strengthen the faith of even one or many, as He is our Strong Deliverer; from sin and also of His messages, of which they are both binding to our covenants, that we would feed our needs with His Word. I am speaking about the message, as it is intended: proceeding from the fount of every blessing, wherewith His Love pours most charitably on men, like stones under rushing water. The darkness that is seen, through the glass, it is from the mix of good and bad that we roll with, through the progression of mortality, for each with varying mixtures that becomes accumulated with both extremes. Even when He is filled with wrath, His messages are always delivered, as He intended.

Our Father purposes that a message is given, to be pure, as He is perfect; never failing. After it has been received, the message itself is still clearly received as it was intended. A person or group's denial or manipulation of that message is beholden to the seat of corruption. Yet, it isn't that His message was ever imperfect, in and of itself, nor are His messengers lacking anything spiritual necessary, that the recipient(s) do not heed. Most confounding, for so many, is that He already knows what decisions will be made, what paths we take. Not everyone would agree with me on that, however, His power is absolute, even knowing beyond an eternity: the moment of what is; He is the paradoxical other; the Great I AM. His grace is also oft misstated, that it is within any man's dictation, for what it should or shouldn't be. So foreign is it, to the mortal, that there aren't words strong enough to describe Him or His Love for us, that we may find Him so giving.

None of this journey is ever only a carnal matter, that which is of the flesh. In all ways, its purpose is both temporal and spiritual; it is eternal. For all intents and purposes, in wrath or in grace, He has one overwhelming message, "Return to Me, the Father of all Creation. Prepare for the Day. Be reconciled while in the mortal to avoid being sieved [plucked out] in the immortal. Doing so, so you may find perfection, even to walk again with the Most High, even to be as He is, perfect." Our choices aren't singular, in one or the other, they are one along with the other, co-dependent parts, temporal on spiritual and vice versa, both conjunct. In any case, our parts becoming whole wouldn't need be a transfiguration by Atonement, being resurrected by His Son, if we were free of all corruption. This is the dilemma of man, that corruption is not only born from the body, for in and of itself is but a vessel, a temple built by God, that our spirits are placed into, ultimately meant for a symbiosis, so that we may receive His messages and serve others having loosed. By this state of being, all of what makes us what we are can find itself given to corruption, even to temptations of man's adversaries, for which a believer has nothing in common with. It is a parasite that stress tests our whole being, picks apart the senses, and when given into deprives us of our reception of purity. It threatens both our inheritance of the next estate and our willing reunion with the first. Finally, however long-winded, even though among the exalted are few, if one is faithful beyond vain words alone, it is thereby we receive the promises of His Son, that all in acceptance receive everlasting life and more. To corrupt His messages, even the writs and decrees all believers are charged with spreading, that to be found without faith and up to blaspheme, for which your affiant further sayeth naught.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Thanks, I mostly agree.

I would make a distinction, though, from this carnal and corrupted body to the intended "symbiotic" body received only in resurrection. This life can reveal and be in symbol of the future ascension to that state which is symbiotic but currently it is still a fallen state at best.

I was not talking about the message given but the message received. So, as far as the message given, I think we are on the same page. If I were to try to teach calculus to a 3 year old, it really doesn't matter how perfect my message is, it would be received differently than if the same message was received by a math major in college. Our bodies are corrupted and in our current state cannot (and was never intended to) receive the things that a perfected body could. A dream, which is a construct of the corrupted body could never be a perfect message. A vision, on the other hand could be received perfectly as it is obtained through the spirit.

[pntkl]

Thanks, I mostly agree.

...

If I were to try to teach calculus to a 3 year old, it really doesn't matter how perfect my message is, it would be received differently than if the same message was received by a math major in college.

Thank you as well, and you're welcome. I was going to say that we're saying very similar things, the other day, but my backspace finger was itchy.

I do agree with what you're saying about three year olds. Having a point of reference is important with any communication. With the Spirit, I do however find it to be a communication all believers are familiar with, yet would have a hard time formulating to each other in all cases.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you as well, and you're welcome. I was going to say that we're saying very similar things, the other day, but my backspace finger was itchy.

I do agree with what you're saying about three year olds. Having a point of reference is important with any communication. With the Spirit, I do however find it to be a communication all believers are familiar with, yet would have a hard time formulating to each other in all cases.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Yes and the "formulating to each other" is something like this; Holy Ghost -> Spirit (A) ->Body (A) <--- 'formulating to each other' ----> Body ( B ) --> Spirit ( B ) <--> Holy Ghost confirms the truth of the message. .... at least in this life.

I realize people talk about spirit directly talking with spirit but this is rare and not usual in terms of communications amongst "believers". Usually the spirit to spirit communication we talk about is simply a confirmation of the truthfulness of such a message, as in feeling the spirit when we are in Sunday School, etc. But still the message had to be passed through the corrupted body, twice in fact, for the message to be passed.

The messages received by the prophets and passed to us through scripture are "formulated to each other" in this way, for example. It is delivered as if it is the sound of a trumpet, pure but they often can only hope that it is received in the same way. This is because to pass the spirit to spirit communication received to someone else, it has to go through the corrupted body, twice, to eventually reach the other persons spirit.

[Over43]

No...