The Holy Ghost reveals the truth of all things?

[pntkl]

To do so would be to insult all that is unwavering skepticism. Farewell, brother phil.

Love,

T.J. Wood

"We measure things by what we are. To the maggots in the cheese, the cheese is the universe. To the worms in the corpse, the corpse is the cosmos. How then can we be so ****-sure about our world? Just because of our telescopes, our microscopes, and the splitting of the atom? Nope!

"Science is but an organized system of ignorance. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy! What do we know of the Beyond? Do we know what's behind the Beyond?

"I'm afraid some of us hardly know what is beyond the Behind.

"Creatures of twilight and delusion, we drift toward our unknown ends. And that is why I feel the best thing is not to be born.

"But who is as lucky as that? To whom does it happen? Not to one out of millions and millions of people!"- Theodore Gottlieb A.K.A. Brother Theodore

[cryophil]

The laborers are few. But Jehovah's work is going forth and hasn't stopped and will not stop through the Millennium. If you were born here, then why not start here? If it is indeed true, then you already have a great advantage. But don't take all our words for it, for that is trusting in the arm of flesh. Hence the need for the witness of the Holy Ghost. It sounds to me like you want something so badly that isn't there rather than accepting what the Lord has already declared.

Thanks. Would a missionary tell one of another faith to just stay where they're at and flesh it out? Or would they ask them to test LDS belief and make the switch?

Telling me that I need to accept what the Lord has already declared is not helpful. As I've stated: I have experienced a profound experience that testified of of the book of Mormon. And also a profound spiritual presence witnessing doctrines in polytheistic religions that are contrary to LDS teaching. I have received elation and spiritual type witness of scientific principles that contradict much of LDS teaching.

How can that help when they are all at odds? The same thing happens to worshipers in every religion. The Holy Ghost seems to be giving conflicting witness.

[skalenfehl]

Thanks. Would a missionary tell one of another faith to just stay where they're at and flesh it out? Or would they ask them to test LDS belief and make the switch?

Telling me that I need to accept what the Lord has already declared is not helpful. As I've stated: I have experienced a profound experience that testified of of the book of Mormon. And also a profound spiritual presence witnessing doctrines in polytheistic religions that are contrary to LDS teaching. I have received elation and spiritual type witness of scientific principles that contradict much of LDS teaching.

How can that help when they are all at odds? The same thing happens to worshipers in every religion. The Holy Ghost seems to be giving conflicting witness.

The fact that you say the Holy Ghost gives conflicting witness goes against what all prophets have declared. Perhaps then studying and understanding the nature and promises of each God will help you to narrow it down. I have testified already concerning the Book of Mormon and this church. I initially pointed you to a thread, which I started because you reached out here. I am a missionary, a witness of Christ and of this church. May I ask if you read it?

[cryophil]

The fact that you say the Holy Ghost gives conflicting witness goes against what all prophets have declared. Perhaps then studying and understanding the nature and promises of each God will help you to narrow it down. I have testified already concerning the Book of Mormon and this church. I initially pointed you to a thread, which I started because you reached out here. I am a missionary, a witness of Christ and of this church. May I ask if you read it?

I glanced over your link. I'm pretty familiar with the teachings.

I see your point about the fact that conflicting witness through the Holy Ghost is contrary to what the prophets tell us.

So either (1) the witness is flawed; in that it invites confusion because it is so closely related to non-spiritual emotional or adversarial sources. Or (2) the prophets are wrong about it being able to witness contradicting things, in which case it isn’t a truth meter.

The other problem is, if I am using Holy Ghost to get a testimony of the restoration & prophets authority, then I would be biased to based my conclusion of the witness on what the prophets tell me can’t be true. It would be defendant telling the judge on what basis he can judge the defendant.

In (1), that would mean God’s primary way for us to test faith and increase our understanding of truth is very sketchy and difficult to really understand. In (2) it would mean Moroni’s promise is just opinion and not really God’s plan.

Many here will probably say (3) that I am just a poor candidate for the Holy Ghost. Feel free to judge my sincerity and my rigorous attempts to get an answer. That won't help me. Nor be honest about the real issues here.

Edited April 25, 2012 by cryophil

[skalenfehl]

I glanced over your link. I'm pretty familiar with the teachings.

I see your point about the fact that conflicting witness through the Holy Ghost is contrary to what the prophets tell us.

So either (1) the witness is flawed; in that it invites confusion because it is so closely related to non-spiritual emotional or adversarial sources. Or (2) the prophets are wrong about it being able to witness contradicting things, in which case it isn’t a truth meter.

The other problem is, if I am using Holy Ghost to get a testimony of the restoration & prophets authority, then I would be biased to based my conclusion of the witness on what the prophets tell me can’t be true. It would be defendant telling the judge on what basis he can judge the defendant.

In (1), that would mean God’s primary way for us to test faith and increase our understanding of truth is very sketchy and difficult to really understand. In (2) it would mean Moroni’s promise is just opinion and not really God’s plan.

Many here will probably say (3) that I am just a poor candidate for the Holy Ghost. Feel free to judge my sincerity and my rigorous attempts to get an answer. That won't help me. Nor be honest about the real issues here.

I do not believe that you are insincere. On the contrary, I can feel your anguish to the point of impatience. There is also a third possibility:

3) You misinterpret the witness based on your own understanding.

The fact that you merely glanced over it confirms Prisonchaplain's commentary. You are not a poor candidate for the Holy Ghost, but I strongly suspect that, and forgive my frank observation, you still lack a true understanding of what it means to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. Only unto such, of whatever faith or background, are truly tuned in to the whisperings and witness of the Holy Ghost and can be guided by him. When Christ visited the Nephites, they could not understand what He began to teach them, despite the fact that He, the Son of God, was right in front of them. Do you know what he admonished them to do? There were a couple things.

[HiJolly]

First, because Moroni said, "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Yes, and I'm still not sure you understand what I'm saying concerning that.

Second, because that is the claim the prophets make.

For example, Ezra Taft Benson said, "if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it."

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion

Gordon B. Hinckley said, "It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith. "

I think there is some value to what Presidents Benson & Hinckley have to say, but personally I don't agree with them. And what they say is not doctrine nor scripture, so I'm ok to disagree.

It's a chain. The BoM is a big link.

Yes, but not in the way I think you are taking it. <sigh> Life is tough. It's so difficult to understand each other really well.

Ok. Point taken. I linked it that way because if the LDS church teaching about eternal life is true, then it is the only church with the priesthood authority to baptise, to confrim and to seal members in the temple, which it teaches is essential for eternal life.

So it is essential to clarify that either all churches are true on different levels and not one of them is more true or has more authority, or that the LDS church is the only one with that authority and it is required by God.

I thought most here saw it as the latter, but I am probably mistaken. I'm looking to verify this personally.

Most LDS people do see it as the latter case. Clearly, I am unusual because I am a mystic. We typically have a bit of tension with the institutional Church and Fowler-stage-3 type people. I try very hard to get along.

For example, I do believe that the LDS Church is the best pathway to Christ & God, for most people. But I know for sure that the spiritual fulfillment of our ordinances is FAR more important than the outward demonstration of them. And how these come to us is up to God, not necessarily the institution of the Church. But for the mainstream membership, the Church makes it all work. Most people are not mystics.

The Church teachings on these things are useful for practically everybody. That is their strength.

Whatever Church or spiritual path we choose, we have to REALLY believe it. That's what makes the critical difference. So if I'm going to do that, my path had better be a good one. In this Church, I have that.

HiJolly

[skalenfehl]

So it is essential to clarify that either all churches are true on different levels and not one of them is more true or has more authority, or that the LDS church is the only one with that authority and it is required by God.

There are many denominations, all of which have truth and light. I will be so bold as to declare that only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the fullness of the everlasting gospel, where the authority to act in God's name resides. There must needs be authority to act in God's name for by only this authority can we baptize unto repentance. This is the crux of the gospel.

Therefore, if the Book of Mormon is true, as Moroni testifies, it points to Joseph Smith being a true prophet called of God in the latter days to restore Christ church, as Isaiah testified and prophesied would occur as a marvelous work and a wonder. It is the catalyst for the gathering of Israel as prophesied since the Old Testament. Therefore of Joseph Smith truly did translate the Book of Mormon, which is a record of the tribe of Joseph (just as the Bible is a record of the tribe of Judah), then we have a second witness testifying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that through Joseph Smith, the true and living church of Jesus Christ has been established on the earth today for the salvation of mankind. It really is that simple.

[cryophil]

Well, I'm sure that it's just me, but I am at a loss as to how to proceed further in this thread I created. The answers I get are all over the place:

- the Holy Ghost response is something that is different for everyone, but you'll know it when you get it

- it takes devotion and patience and a long time to really get an answer by the Holy Ghost

- you've already gotten your answer, but you're not humble enough to accept it

- truth is found everywhere, the prophets really don't get it when it comes to the Holy Ghost

- the LDS church is the only one with God's authority, and the HG will witness of it, if you really know how to listen

Anyway, thanks to all for trying. My conclusion is, the system God has given is not meant to be easy, or, there's a better way to find the facts and truth than feelings.

Another thing that seems clear: missionary work seems futile given the lack of clarity on this. How can we expect anyone to really come to a conclusion about the truth when the process is so confusing and the indicators of an answer are so muddy?

Edited April 25, 2012 by cryophil

[HiJolly]

Well, I'm sure that it's just me, but I am at a loss as to how to proceed further in this thread I created. The answers I get are all over the place:

These are not the answers you have been given. They are your subjective conception (which is fine) and are inaccurate, incomplete, or insufficient (which is not fine).

Anyway, thanks to all for trying. My conclusion is, the system God has given is not meant to be easy, or, there's a better way to find the facts and truth than feelings.

A conclusion is the place we find ourselves when we get tired of thinking.

HiJolly

[skalenfehl]

cryophil, you still didn't answer my question. Which begs the next question, if I may--have you read the Book of Mormon through at least once?

[cryophil]

cryophil, you still didn't answer my question. Which begs the next question, if I may--have you read the Book of Mormon through at least once?

Yes.

I don't recall your other question.

[cryophil]

These are not the answers you have been given. They are your subjective conception (which is fine) and are inaccurate, incomplete, or insufficient (which is not fine).

What I see here is, no simple answers and a lot of blaming me for not getting it.

That's what's tiring me.

[skalenfehl]

We're not blaming you. We're trying to help. But the thing is, we are all human and at different stages of growth in the gospel, like you. I truly hope you can see it in this light.

[skalenfehl]

Yes.

I don't recall your other question.

Feel free to scroll back up and reread my posts. I even asked again in my other thread.

[HiJolly]

We're not blaming you. We're trying to help. But the thing is, we are all human and at different stages of growth in the gospel, like you. I truly hope you can see it in this light.

Amen. The only place where blame is due, is where we fail to be patient and thoughtful. And we all have struggled with that, so that applies as much to me as it does to you, or anyone else.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Argumentum ad ignoratium is what you speak of. However, faith transcending simple belief is not cyclically unverifiable, it is acyclically verifiable. In case of the exercise of faith, you introduce a feedback loop, you let it perform work, to be like energy. Without feedback, your belief recursively loops into perpetuity, until it crashes. God's verification is through the resonation, His frequency, which one must be attuned to. If you live above the noise floor, chaos dictates that which drives you. If you go below it, to process it, you find that what first seemed chaotic or random is a great order of magnitude and well structured. Being at a higher energy condition, many of His mysteries are hidden away. We are limited in dimension, as man and mankind. Even though science hasn't fully identified the make-up of matter in space, noticed by observation; it doesn't mean research is going to cease trying to understand it more determinately.

Ok, I just had to come back to this and try to digest it.

I conclude that this is really good stuff, just a little difficult to comprehend at first glance.

HJ

[cryophil]

If only it were about having a witness where you feel burning in your chest, elation, heart is right, peace and comfort and...

Here's a witness from Muslim women, testifying of Allah.

Women Embracing Islam: Gender And Conversion in the West - Karin Van Nieuwkerk - Google Books

“Many women described a feeling of euphoria after they committed to following Allah . . . . One woman described a feeling of peace; she said: ‘It is like you are born again and you can start all over again, free from sin.’”

Another:

How can you be sure of what happens after death if.... (beliefs, religion) - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 7 - City-Data Forum

" While on my journey, I was asking God what the truth was. I mean I was angry and I truely wanted to know. After a few weeks, I stumbled onto a web site that talked about the very things I was curious about. It answered my questions in a way that I had not heard of before. I read everything on the web site and I even tried the experiment of asking God for His love, His Divine Love. After about 6 weeks, I felt a burning in my chest and a sensation that was unlike anything I had ever felt. It was pure happiness and peace. I knew then that God had sent His love to me." (post by Reverend1111)

The above is about New Age.

Hindu:

Siddhaloka - Abode of Siddhas

“A feeling of peace seemed to flow into me with a sense of togetherness with the Guru. ... I felt very peaceful from inside...”

Who am I?

" I experienced a feeling of peace and love unlike anything I had ever experienced before."

And a surprising one:

"As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. . . . The experience lasted just a few moments..."

(Atheist Sam Harris)

On Faith Panelists Blog: Selfless Consciousness Without Faith - Sam Harris

So which God, which gospel, which witness is correct?

Edited April 25, 2012 by cryophil

[HiJolly]

You seem to associate all these with the witness of the Holy Ghost. I disagree. Have you studied brain physiology?

I highly suggest you listen to these two podcasts:

77-78: Recognizing “the Spirit” | Mormon Matters

HiJolly

[cryophil]

You seem to associate all these with the witness of the Holy Ghost. I disagree. Have you studied brain physiology?

I highly suggest you listen to these two podcasts:

77-78: Recognizing “the Spirit” | Mormon Matters

HiJolly

Thanks. This may be what I am looking for.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Argumentum ad ignoratium is what you speak of. However, faith transcending simple belief is not cyclically unverifiable, it is acyclically verifiable. In case of the exercise of faith, you introduce a feedback loop, you let it perform work, to be like energy. Without feedback, your belief recursively loops into perpetuity, until it crashes. God's verification is through the resonation, His frequency, which one must be attuned to. If you live above the noise floor, chaos dictates that which drives you. If you go below it, to process it, you find that what first seemed chaotic or random is a great order of magnitude and well structured. Being at a higher energy condition, many of His mysteries are hidden away. We are limited in dimension, as man and mankind. Even though science hasn't fully identified the make-up of matter in space, noticed by observation; it doesn't mean research is going to cease trying to understand it more determinately.

I agree with what you say here but I am not sure why you put that sentence, that I put in bold. That seems to be contrary to the rest of the paragraph. Either we are okay with a resonating assurance of truth or we must find some measure of structure. I think it is the idea that we can attain a full understanding of the mysteries of God while in this life or even have the chance to "process it", at least to the point of calling it "structured", that is a distraction as to the purpose of this life and is not the real goal of this life. I think that is a misleading goal for this life that is out there. Understanding in this life can come after faith but was never part of the list of principles needed to merit exaltation. Faith without understanding can still get a person there.

The main goal is to be okay with faith alone. If there is a measure of understanding that promotes faith, that is great. But to really understand is not the goal of this life. We all, likely, intellectually understood the plan in great detail in the previous existence in the presence of God and here we are to remember that understanding. We don't have to learn it de novo. Like the sound a modem makes on a telephone line, it doesn't have to sound "structured" or make sense to our physical ear to send a message to our spirit, it can still sound "chaotic or random" and we can be okay with that.

[pntkl]

Fitting pieces of a large puzzle can be quite perplexing. It is a huge letdown, after starting it with great anticipation, only to realize your family left most of the pieces far away. It's not like you can make new pieces and without the picture and cutting template of it.

Although not necessarily the most correct understanding, as I explained it, it is a simile, rather than facsimile, to technical concepts that somewhat mimic what it is like, to hear the Spirit. Another way to describe the noise floor might be 'mutual coherence'. I'm no scientist, it was simply a prompting to give it as such, in that moment. We can be driven to madness, if we desire to understand such things the way they are in heaven, this is God's right only, to give and to take away. To try is like drinking poison.

I am with you, that it isn't for our Atonement, that the mysteries of God be known. When purposes, He makes them known. As they are, even to teach of them is of no use, out of place of His intentions. You are correct, that faith lacking understanding is by and large the way we enter into our destinations.

There is one issue with accepting faith alone, which for many can go without saying, yet is important enough for drumming its emphasis, as it is beyond simply saying that we are faithful--faith without works is dead.

Hoping to be privileged to the mysteries of God, without His ordaining it is short-sighted. It is also a reason many fall away, even with such great promises, for those enduring to the end. If you are thankful for what you have already received, so will you be charitable with it. Even discourses of the nature found on this forum, they are one part of His Works, done so righteously: an exercise our faith.

Isaiah 28:1-29 

James 2:1-26 

Love,

T.J. Wood

[cryophil]

You seem to associate all these with the witness of the Holy Ghost. I disagree. Have you studied brain physiology?

I highly suggest you listen to these two podcasts:

77-78: Recognizing “the Spirit” | Mormon Matters

HiJolly

I finished listening. Here's my summary of thoughts.

It seems the question of the podcast is: If the Holy Ghost is infallible, then how can one know infallibly when we have its promptings? After a good discussion on biology and biases (part 1) Conclusion in Part 2 is that you just can't know until it happens. You just have to leap and see what happens. If it plays out to confirm your promptings, then you can conclude post-dict that it was the spirit. If not, it was just your emotions. They agree that at least we get negative feelings to ward off bad directions. That following your heart, whether it is just you or some spirit, is still probabilistically your best bet.

I see so many logical fallacies in the discussion that I will list only the ones that are obvious to most listeners. First: begging the question and second cherry picking the results. It's assumed in the question that any decision you make based on promptings that results in a correct prediction is from god. Anything that does not result correct is from you. Then they go back in their past to re-evaluate a match and then conclude what they asked in the first place. Others include genetic fallacy, the B&W fallacy, the bandwagon, the gambler's fallacy, the anecdotal fallacy, etc.

[HiJolly]

I finished listening. Here's my summary of thoughts.

It seems the question of the podcast is: If the Holy Ghost is infallible, then how can one know infallibly when we have its promptings? After a good discussion on biology and biases (part 1) Conclusion in Part 2 is that you just can't know until it happens. You just have to leap and see what happens. If it plays out to confirm your promptings, then you can conclude post-dict that it was the spirit. If not, it was just your emotions. They agree that at least we get negative feelings to ward off bad directions. That following your heart, whether it is just you or some spirit, is still probabilistically your best bet.

I see so many logical fallacies in the discussion that I will list only the ones that are obvious to most listeners. First: begging the question and second cherry picking the results. It's assumed in the question that any decision you make based on promptings that results in a correct prediction is from god. Anything that does not result correct is from you. Then they go back in their past to re-evaluate a match and then conclude what they asked in the first place. Others include genetic fallacy, the B&W fallacy, the bandwagon, the gambler's fallacy, the anecdotal fallacy, etc.

Wow. I guess you're a black-and-white viewpoint person with little or no capacity to deal (in a mentally healthy way) with ambiguity. That's unfortunate for you, I really sympathize.

So the fact that the panel knew all the falacies, what they are, what they mean, doesn't impress you? You know more than they, I suppose.

And the fact that the brain physiologist understands physical brain functions (and quotes Robert Burton's On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not ) (which I have read also - what a great book!) doesn't phase you -- you understand it all better than either of them. Uh-huh.

I'm thinking you need a lot of introspective thought about yourself and your thinking methodology. Best wishes.

HiJolly

Edited April 26, 2012 by HiJolly
clarification

[cryophil]

Wow. I guess you're a black-and-white viewpoint person with little or no capacity to deal (in a mentally healthy way) with ambiguity. That's unfortunate for you, I really sympathize.

So the fact that the panel knew all the falacies, what they are, what they mean, doesn't impress you? You know more than they, I suppose.

And the fact that the brain physiologist understands physical brain functions (and quotes Robert Burton's On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not ) (which I have read also - what a great book!) doesn't phase you -- you understand it all better than either of them. Uh-huh.

I'm thinking you need a lot of introspective thought about yourself and your thinking methodology. Best wishes.

HiJolly

Interesting, when all else fails, don't try to discuss the real issue, ad hominem me--I'm just a black and white person. Here's where the B&W thinking comes from Moroni 10:3-5. The truth of all things comes from the Holy Ghost. But not a single person from the top leadership down can actually yield an answer as to how that's consistently, unambiguously recognized. It's the way God intended us to find the truth, and yet it is one of the most ambiguous experiences out there. It's suppose to be a solid experiment of faith (the seed in Alma 32) and it turns out to be completely unclear. The conclusion of these four, even despite some very good discussion on neuroscience was clouded by the end.

I can live with grays easily. But to do so, I would probably stop having to be a true-believing mormon. I would have to accept that there is no real promptings of the spirit, that like Michael Ferguson said, it is a co-evolved response, all biology.

And yes, I give them credit for recognizing the biases, but take away all points when they violated them in Part 2.

I think Michael Ferguson was excellent. I think he gets it. He never once said that he thought the promptings of the spirit were mystical or metaphysical. He said they are products of evolution. The host and other two wanted to make the case for mysticism. Scott Holley sounded like a true-believing mormon until he was asked to give his testimony, and then he said, he had no real reason to believe except that it was comforting. That's fine and good. The problem is, the LDS church has exclaimed that it is the one-and-only church with God's authority to perform saving ordinances. People the world over find comfort and reason to believe in all kinds of things. But that is not good enough for the LDS church. They send out missionaries and proclaim that everyone will have to choose sides eventually or not get into a kingdom of heaven.

How's that for B&W thinking?

I'd rather it were just about comfort and peace and goodness. I would agree and be happier with that. But that is not what the LDS church has taught through my life.

That's definitely not what is represented in the temple endowment either. You make specific promises and many are an all or nothing (financial, marriage, etc). They're very B&W, and yet, what do I get in return? Wishy-washy "spiritual presence" if I can even trust that.

Edited April 26, 2012 by cryophil

[cryophil]

You know, here are three articles from Church Youth magazines, which tell me that in fact, there are many who don't get the promise and are told to just believe anyway and not worry about it. This troubles me because it is symptomatic of brain-washing techniques. It's aimed at young impressionable minds. Told to not question, just keep believing.

HiJolly, can you list the cognitive biases taught in these official church articles?

----

From the New Era Feb, 2010

Waiting for My Testimony - New Era Feb. 2010 - new-era

Waiting for My Testimony

BY CAROLYN LEDUC

The answer to my prayers wasn't a sudden flash of inspiration. It just took time.

"This time, I'm really going to do it," I told myself. "This time, I'm going to make it all the way through the Book of Mormon."

In the past I had read a chapter here, a chapter there, but now I wanted to say I'd read it from cover to cover. "I'll put Moroni's promise to the test," I told myself, eager to get started. "I'll finally learn whether the Church is true."

For the next 90 days, I diligently devoured the book's contents. Exultant with joy as I closed with Moroni's farewell and amen, I scrambled to my knees.

Brimming with anticipation, I posed my question: Was the Book of Mormon true? As I waited for a response, a cricket chirped. The air conditioner switched on. My watch intrusively ticked off the seconds as they passed. There was no burning bosom sensation, no chorus of angels, no flash of knowing. Nothing.

I was somewhat perplexed. "Do I just need to read the book again?" I thought to myself. "I guess it couldn't hurt."

Three months later, again finishing with Moroni's testimony, I leapt to the floor, doubly sure I'd done my part, doubly sure an answer would come. But my hopes were disappointed when, as before, my inquiry was met with silence. Unsure of what else to do, I got off my knees and started over. Again. But even after a third reading, there came no reply. I was confused. Where was the answer I'd been promised?

Not to be defeated, I picked up my scriptures, now with a fraying front cover, full of red highlighted verses and with random pages beginning to slip from the binding. "Okay," I said to myself, "once more."

When at last I finished the book for the fourth time in a 12-month period, I didn't immediately drop to my knees. I sat for some time, reflecting on the year. Truly, it had been a remarkable period of growth and change. I smiled, noting to myself that it was common these days for me to feel happy.

I thought about friendships I had formed with wonderful peers who strengthened my faith. I thought about how my family relationships had taken a dramatic turn for the better. I hadn't fought with my siblings in months, and my parents and I seemed to communicate with amazing ease. What's more, schoolwork seemed less stressful, odd jobs had been available to provide extra income, and even my physical fitness had improved.

But the most significant change had been in my spirit. I now looked forward to attending church, gladly paid tithes, fasted and prayed with much greater faith, and could list many times when the Spirit had prompted me to avoid danger, express kindness, or voice truth.

All told, there was little in my life that wasn't drastically better now than it had been just 12 months earlier. "That's so cool!" I said out loud, slipping to my knees.

Bowing my head, I couldn't even ask the question. "I get it," I said to the Lord. "I get it. The truth of this book isn't always manifest in burning bosoms and visions of angels; it's manifest in the lives of the people who read it and put it to use. I don't need to ask anymore if this book is true. I experience its truth every day I live its teachings."

This wasn't the answer I had anticipated when I first set out to put Moroni's promise to the test. It was far better. The Lord could have given me a single flash of confirming peace. Instead, He had given me a whole year of it.

From the Feb New Era 2011

An Unexpected Answer - New Era Feb. 2011 - new-era

An Unexpected Answer

BY AMY CARPENTER

I was hoping for an overwhelming spiritual

confirmation, but it did not come.

I've noticed a lot of times when I've picked up a Church magazine or listened to the testimonies of others, people often share experiences when they've been overcome by the Spirit after asking Heavenly Father a particular question, specifically if the Book of Mormon is true. Spiritual experiences are amazing; I love reading about them.

However, I think many people get the wrong impression that if they don't receive an overpowering response to their question that somehow their testimony must not be strong enough. In my experience, the Spirit more often comes in a quiet, soft way rather than a metaphorical lightning bolt of truth.

Last summer the youth in our ward were challenged to read the entire Book of Mormon. Eventually the summer came to an end, and I finished the Book of Mormon. As I kneeled to pray and asked if the book was true, I remember thinking that this was it-I would finally have the experience that everyone seems to talk about where they are overcome by the Spirit.

The truth is, when I prayed, I didn't feel that way. At first I was a little upset. Why hadn't I received such a witness? Was I not worthy? But I soon realized that though many people might feel the Spirit confirming truth to them very strongly when they pray about the Book of Mormon, there are many others who don't have that same experience. Just because you may not receive an extremely strong confirmation does not mean the Book of Mormon isn't true or that your testimony is not as strong as someone else's. It simply means that the Spirit can speak to people in different ways and at different times.

For me, this experience taught me that we don't always receive answers in the way we expect. I thought I would feel an overpowering spiritual impression after I prayed about the Book of Mormon-but I didn't. Honestly, I believe I already knew it was true.

Though I may not have felt the Spirit very strongly at that time, I knew I had felt it while reading about Alma's conversion and about Ammon and his brothers bringing thousands of Lamanites to the gospel, and about Christ teaching the Nephites after His Resurrection. I realized that feeling the Spirit while reading different parts of the Book of Mormon also confirmed to me that the entire book was true.

I believe this same message is applicable to any part of the gospel. The things we know can help us accept the things we may not fully understand. I know that this gospel is true, and I know that we can all gain testimonies if we work at it.

For the Youth

https://www.lds.org/youth/article/gaining-and-keeping-a-testimony?lang=eng

Testimony

BY MINDY RAYE FRIEDMAN

Church Magazines

A testimony generally comes slowly, over time, as you work to help it grow.

Maybe you were baptized when you were eight years old and you've been going to church your whole life. Maybe you were just recently introduced to the Church. Perhaps you have a strong testimony of the Restoration of the gospel, or maybe you're not sure if you even know the Book of Mormon is true. In any case, everyone needs to constantly nourish and help his or her testimony to grow. So what are you supposed to do? Here are some things to consider.

Revelation Usually Comes a Little at a Time

Sometimes we think we don't have a testimony or that it can grow only if we have a great spiritual miracle. More often, though, we receive revelation and spiritual knowledge only a little bit at a time. Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles compares revelation to the ways we experience light:

"A light turned on in a dark room is like receiving a message from God quickly, completely, and all at once. Many of us have experienced this pattern of revelation as we have been given answers to sincere prayers or been provided with needed direction or protection, according to God's will and timing. ... However, this pattern of revelation tends to be more rare than common.

"The gradual increase of light radiating from the rising sun is like receiving a message from God ‘line upon line, precept upon precept' (2 Nephi 28:30). Most frequently, revelation comes in small increments over time and is granted according to our desire, worthiness, and preparation. ... This pattern of revelation tends to be more common than rare" ("The Spirit of Revelation," Ensign, May 2011, 88).

The Spirit Is the Key

In order to strengthen testimony, it is important to be able to have the Holy Ghost with you and to listen to His promptings. It is hard, however, to hear the Spirit's whisperings when you are distracted by other things. Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has taught:

"The inspiring influence of the Holy Spirit can be overcome or masked by strong emotions, such as anger, hate, passion, fear, or pride. When such influences are present, it is like trying to savor the delicate flavor of a grape while eating a jalapeño pepper. Both flavors are present, but one completely overpowers the other. In like manner, strong emotions overcome the delicate promptings of the Holy Spirit" ("To Acquire Spiritual Guidance," Ensign, Nov. 2009, 8).

A Testimony Comes through Good Choices

Elder Scott has explained that "a testimony is not emotion. It is the very essence of character woven from threads born of countless correct decisions. These choices are made with trusting faith in things that are believed and, at least initially, are not seen. A strong testimony gives peace, comfort, and assurance. It generates the conviction that as the teachings of the Savior are consistently obeyed, life will be beautiful, the future will be secure, and there will be capacity to overcome the challenges that cross our path. A testimony grows from understanding truth distilled from prayer and the pondering of scriptural doctrine. It is nurtured by living those truths with faith anchored in the secure confidence that the promised results will be obtained" ("The Transforming Power of Faith and Character," Ensign, Nov. 2010, 45-46).

Get Out and Do Something

Sometimes in order for your testimony to grow, you have to go and do something. President Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency has taught: "Often, the answer to our prayer does not come while we're on our knees but while we're on our feet serving the Lord and serving those around us. Selfless acts of service and consecration refine our spirits, remove the scales from our spiritual eyes, and open the windows of heaven. By becoming the answer to someone's prayer, we often find the answer to our own" ("Waiting on the Road to Damascus," Ensign, May 2011, 76).

Don't Give Up

Just because you feel like you're in a spiritual slump or that your testimony is weak, or even if you feel your testimony is strong, that doesn't mean you should stop trying to strengthen your testimony. Keep pressing forward. Elder Bednar offers these words of encouragement:

"I have talked with many individuals who question the strength of their personal testimony and underestimate their spiritual capacity because they do not receive frequent, miraculous, or strong impressions. ... If you have had similar thoughts or doubts, please know that you are quite normal. Just keep pressing forward obediently and with faith in the Savior. As you do so, you ‘cannot go amiss' D&C 80:3)" ("The Spirit of Revelation,"Ensign, May 2011, 89).