The Holy Ghost reveals the truth of all things?

[Seminarysnoozer]

You know, here are three articles from Church Youth magazines, which tell me that in fact, there are many who don't get the promise and are told to just believe anyway and not worry about it. This troubles me because it is symptomatic of brain-washing techniques. It's aimed at young impressionable minds. Told to not question, just keep believing.

HiJolly, can you list the cognitive biases taught in these official church articles?

What impression are your worried about for these "young impressionable minds"?

That they will believe in something uplifting, full of hope, a source of happiness, a drive for productivity, something that promotes family unity, a loyalty to country, charity, kindness, healthy living?

.... its a good thing there are people trying to get to the bottom of this to not let this happen any longer.

[pntkl]

But not a single person from the top leadership down can actually yield an answer as to how that's consistently, unambiguously recognized. It's the way God intended us to find the truth, and yet it is one of the most ambiguous experiences out there. It's suppose to be a solid experiment of faith (the seed in Alma 32) and it turns out to be completely unclear. The conclusion of these four, even despite some very good discussion on neuroscience was clouded by the end.

Isaiah 48:1-22 

Mark 11:28-33 

Mark 12:1-12,41-44 

Luke 6:46-49 

Luke 10:1-24 

Learning comes to those that spend the time to know the answers within. Outside of yourself, you only find sentinels pointing which way. Some point northward, others southward. Then, walking along your chosen way; after you lay down upon your bed, you find where the choice has lead.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[HiJolly]

Interesting, when all else fails, don't try to discuss the real issue, ad hominem me--I'm just a black and white person.

That's a gross mischaracterization, and you should know it. The fact is, I've discussed the issue with you. Many of us have, in an effort to help you see the 'issue' with a more helpful perspective. But you are not able, or refuse, to understand. I don't know which it is.

Here's where the B&W thinking comes from Moroni 10:3-5. The truth of all things comes from the Holy Ghost.

No, that's not what Moroni says. Flat out 'not'. You are wrong. I hope that's clear enough.

But not a single person from the top leadership down can actually yield an answer as to how that's consistently, unambiguously recognized.

That because, as I said before, the answer is subjective. It's up to you and your personal spiritual development as to whether it's "consistently, unambiguously recognized". Told. you. that.

It's the way God intended us to find the truth, and yet it is one of the most ambiguous experiences out there. It's suppose to be a solid experiment of faith (the seed in Alma 32) and it turns out to be completely unclear. The conclusion of these four, even despite some very good discussion on neuroscience was clouded by the end.

No, it just wasn't what you wanted to hear. You are clouding the issue yourself.

I can live with grays easily. But to do so, I would probably stop having to be a true-believing mormon. I would have to accept that there is no real promptings of the spirit, that like Michael Ferguson said, it is a co-evolved response, all biology.

No, you wouldn't. I haven't, although I agree that I am no longer what most LDS would consider a "true-believing mormon'. But I know the Church is true (straight, or as someone else said, the verb 'true' works) and I declare it in fast-and-testimony meeting (when my calling allows it), and I know that there is indeed a great and glorious God (even if he/she may not be exactly as the LDS Church teaches it), and I know that I could not have arrived at my current state of belief and/or knowledge without the Church's truth to set me on the path as a child.

I do believe that 90% of human spirituality is driven by biology. Absolutely. But there is no question that there is also something else, that makes this Church 'living'. True and living. If evidence accounts for anything, this is a true statement.

And yes, I give them credit for recognizing the biases, but take away all points when they violated them in Part 2.

I think you want to be a robot. Not a human. Sad.

I think Michael Ferguson was excellent. I think he gets it. He never once said that he thought the promptings of the spirit were mystical or metaphysical. He said they are products of evolution. The host and other two wanted to make the case for mysticism. Scott Holley sounded like a true-believing mormon until he was asked to give his testimony, and then he said, he had no real reason to believe except that it was comforting. That's fine and good. The problem is, the LDS church has exclaimed that it is the one-and-only church with God's authority to perform saving ordinances. People the world over find comfort and reason to believe in all kinds of things. But that is not good enough for the LDS church. They send out missionaries and proclaim that everyone will have to choose sides eventually or not get into a kingdom of heaven.

Baloney. You know, if you listen to the Morg-bots, then fine, you may have a point. But they know nothing deeper. They're just reacting to stimulus without thought. And you seem to want to say that they are all the church is. That's nuts. That's blind.

How's that for B&W thinking?

You're doing a 'fine' job of it. And apparently, you can't even see it. You are holding the LDS Church and Mormons in general to a standard you can't live yourself. That's so unkind to both parties.

I'd rather it were just about comfort and peace and goodness. I would agree and be happier with that. But that is not what the LDS church has taught through my life.

Then you didn't understand what the Gospel really is. There are only two commandments. You've been taught that, surely. I hear it every year or so in General Conference. Why don't you?

That's definitely not what is represented in the temple endowment either. You make specific promises and many are an all or nothing (financial, marriage, etc). They're very B&W, and yet, what do I get in return? Wishy-washy "spiritual presence" if I can even trust that.

The temple endowment tells you that everything taught to you is compromised. That the ONLY pure source of 'teaching' is from divine messengers. You are taught to filter all of what you hear in Sacrament meeting, Sunday School, Priesthood, General Conference, the Ensign and more, but you don't understand that. You understand so very little!

Why not slow down? Why not ponder these things deeply, slowly, and personally, taking your non-rational thinking into account, since your 'rational' thinking is hopelessly compromised? Think! Feel!

I suspect that you are angry and resentful because you've found that things aren't the way you thought they were. I'm sorry. They aren't. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. Bend to the truth.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

You know, here are three articles from Church Youth magazines, which tell me that in fact, there are many who don't get the promise and are told to just believe anyway and not worry about it. This troubles me because it is symptomatic of brain-washing techniques. It's aimed at young impressionable minds. Told to not question, just keep believing.

HiJolly, can you list the cognitive biases taught in these official church articles?

I would like to help you, but have no desire to be your fool.

HJ

[HiJolly]

Isaiah 48:1-22*

Mark 11:28-33*

Mark 12:1-12,41-44*

Luke 6:46-49*

Luke 10:1-24*

Learning comes to those that spend the time to know the answers within. Outside of yourself, you only find sentinels pointing which way. Some point northward, others southward. Then, walking along your chosen way; after you lay down upon your bed, you find where the choice has lead.

Love,

T.J. Wood

AMEN. I'm feeling the love, my friend.

HiJolly

[volgadon]

Brainwashing, what a cheap shot. Are you sure you want to come across as shallow and gratuitous?

[volgadon]

Looking at the quotes cryophil posted, I don't see how they are at all examples of brainwashing.

Martin Buber adapted a Hasidic tradition for his book, Or HaGanuz.

R. Eleazar said: "The light that the Holy One, blessed be He, created on the first day- Adam could see with it from one end of the world to the next. Since the Holy One, blessed be He, looked at the generation of the Deluge and the generation of the Division and saw that their deeds were wicked, He concealed the light from them. And for whom did he conceal it? For the righteous in the future to come."

Hasidim asked: "Where did he conceal it?"

They were answered: "In the Torah."

They asked: "If so, will the Tsadikim not find some of the light as they study Torah?"

They answered: "They certainly will find some."

They asked: "If so, what will the Tsadikim do when they find some of the concealed light in the Torah?"

They answered: "They will reveal it in the way they live."

Theophany can occur very dramatically, with thunderings and angelic declarations, but more often God's light reveals itself through the way people live.

I've bolded a portion from p. 39 of a different book of Buber's, the Ten Rungs.

This is the service man must perform all of his days: to shape matter into form, to refine the flesh, and to let the light penetrate the darkness, until the darkness itself shines and there is no longer any division between the two. As it is written: “And there was evening and there was morning, one day”

One should not make a great to-do about serving God.

Does the hand boast when it carries out what the heart wills?

Abraham Joshua Heschel called this the immanence of Gods through deeds. It is one of our most direct encounters with Him.

Knowing God comes from following his way, growing in love for him and others, leading to a testimony, that is, a witness. THis is what the church articles were talking about.