Moroni 10 And Signs

[Cal]

I was responding to a thought provoking post by PD, and began to think about this issue: What do you all think?

My response to his query about why the HG hadn't given him a "sign" was in relation to another response to his that basically accused PD of "seeking" for a sign, or at least implied that some people don't get an answer because they are "seeking a sign" my response to this last idea was: How can you be faulted for "seeking a sign" that the BoM is true when that is essentially what Moroni is asking you to seek for?

Then I said this:

I have a slightly different question, but along the same line: If one reads the book of mormon, and before he gets to the end, starts having doubts based on things like DNA, anachronisms, bible quotations, unlikely submarine stories, resolving of nineteenth century religious conflicts with 2000 year old native american history, unrealistically specific prophesies of things that already happened at JS's time with no prophesies of any specificity after; and when the person gets to Moroni 10 he can't find any rational way around the above problems, should he pray for a "sign" anyway?

In other words--can the HG tell you to believe something that your rational mind says you can't? IOW can you expect a sign to tell you that the BoM is true, if you don't already believe it and have reasons not to. Or put another way, do you already have to have resolved all your rational objections before you ask for a "sign" and if you ask for a sign before resolving those doubts, can you expect a sign anyway?

[Guest Starsky]

In other words--can the HG tell you to believe something that your rational mind says you can't?

Yes....from my own experience...I have had things told me...and later I received more understanding which made it right to my mind as well.

IOW can you expect a sign to tell you that the BoM is true, if you don't already believe it and have reasons not to.

Yes...but ...I think if you 'doubt' you won't receive the answer promised in Moroni. What I mean is...if you don't believe the things taught in the first of the book, why would you believe the promise?

Moro. 10: 4-5

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Or put another way, do you already have to have resolved all your rational objections before you ask for a "sign" and if you ask for a sign before resolving those doubts, can you expect a sign anyway?

Maybe you should be praying during the whole book...about all the things which bother you.

Of course faith is the step into the dark...kind of thing...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 06:32 PM

In other words--can the HG tell you to believe something that your rational mind says you can't?

Yes....from my own experience...I have had things told me...and later I received more understanding which made it right to my mind as well.

IOW can you expect a sign to tell you that the BoM is true, if you don't already believe it and have reasons not to.

Yes...but ...I think if you 'doubt' you won't receive the answer promised in Moroni. What I mean is...if you don't believe the things taught in the first of the book, why would you believe the promise?

Moro. 10: 4-5

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Or put another way, do you already have to have resolved all your rational objections before you ask for a "sign" and if you ask for a sign before resolving those doubts, can you expect a sign anyway?

Maybe you should be praying during the whole book...about all the things which bother you.

Of course faith is the step into the dark...kind of thing...

There are a lot of issues to be addressed in your response. First I would like to address one in particular----

You place "real intent" in bold. What does that mean? Real intent to do what? Real intent to know the truth? Who doesn't have such an intent? Besides, why would one pray about the BOM WITHOUT real intent? Is there such a thing as UNREAL intent? Does a person who sees REAL evidentiary problems with the BoM NOT have real intent? Maybe he has MORE real intent since he does not let his emotional desire to believe cloud his judgment?

[Guest Starsky]

There are a lot of issues to be addressed in your response. First I would like to address one in particular----

You place "real intent" in bold. What does that mean? Real intent to do what? Real intent to know the truth? Who doesn't have such an intent? Besides, why would one pray about the BOM WITHOUT real intent? Is there such a thing as UNREAL intent? Does a person who sees REAL evidentiary problems with the BoM NOT have real intent? Maybe he has MORE real intent since he does not let his emotional desire to believe cloud his judgment?

Good point.

What I see as real intent...is real expectations...

Does that help?

[Cal]

In other words--can the HG tell you to believe something that your rational mind says you can't?

Yes....from my own experience...I have had things told me...and later I received more understanding which made it right to my mind as well.

IOW can you expect a sign to tell you that the BoM is true, if you don't already believe it and have reasons not to.

Yes...but ...I think if you 'doubt' you won't receive the answer promised in Moroni. What I mean is...if you don't believe the things taught in the first of the book, why would you believe the promise?

Moro. 10: 4-5

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Or put another way, do you already have to have resolved all your rational objections before you ask for a "sign" and if you ask for a sign before resolving those doubts, can you expect a sign anyway?

Maybe you should be praying during the whole book...about all the things which bother you.

Of course faith is the step into the dark...kind of thing...

There are a lot of issues to be addressed in your response. First I would like to address one in particular----

You place "real intent" in bold. What does that mean? Real intent to do what? Real intent to know the truth? Who doesn't have such an intent? Besides, why would one pray about the BOM WITHOUT real intent? Is there such a thing as UNREAL intent? Does a person who sees REAL evidentiary problems with the BoM NOT have real intent? Maybe he has MORE real intent since he does not let his emotional desire to believe cloud his judgment?

(pardon my quoting myself---I'll apologize to Snow (the quote-nazi) in advance :)

Frankly, this "promise" sounds kind of strange to me on its face. By the time you have all this sincerity, "real intent" and faith in Jesus, it sounds like your are pretty much over the hill and down the other side.

What if you don't have enough faith in Jesus? Then what? Do you have to believe in Jesus before you can pray about the BoM?

Which leads to this condundrum: if the BoM is supposed to be a second witness of Jesus, that implies that one witness (the bible, I guess) is not convincing enough to justify believing in Jesus. We have to have another before we believe in Jesus. If that is true, then how can you believe in Jesus enough to have the faith required by Moroni 10? Sounds like a Catch 22 to me. It results in : To get a witness that the BoM is true, you have to believe in Jesus, but before you can believe in Jesus, you need the second witness of the BoM; but before you can believe in it (or Moroni 10) you have to get the confirmation that the BoM itself is true?

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

I’m a pretty independent thinker and like to speculate about a lot of things. I’m a free sort of soul and sometimes a bit rebellious. Regardless of all that, I can assure you that I would not be doing the Mormon thing unless God himself had told me to do so and gave me signs. Otherwise, I couldn’t be bothered with the whole so-called Mormon dilemma. But, as it is, God gave me too much to deny his work through Joseph Smith.

It really is true.

Paul O

[porterrockwell]

I'll give you an example. I was reading in the Bible(somewhere in Matthew) a few days ago. I came upon a parable. But before I did, something told me to back and outline the phrases and word groupings that were significant to teaching that Christ was giving to these people. So I did, then as I start to read, he is speaking of a parable, when the parable was finished, I thought, wait...I just outlined exactly what was meant to be said. Then Christ goes on to say that for those who understand need not the parable. Just kinda reassuring, that you get a prompting when it is necessary. Also, if you are looking for scientific proof, you are not ready to believe in God, let alone the Bible. Just because the Bible has been proved to be historically accurate doesn't mean that it has any theological truth. That proof is what the HG is. Reasoning and the HG must equate the same thing for their to be accuracy. That is how discernment is applied, congruancy. If you have no prompting from the HG that the BOM is true, then maybe it is not true. I personally have recieved confirmation that it is true along with a great deal of others. But maybe for you it is not. Nothing wrong with that, just means that you need to find something that you do believe is true.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Mar 18 2004, 06:59 PM

Cal,

I’m a pretty independent thinker and like to speculate about a lot of things. I’m a free sort of soul and sometimes a bit rebellious. Regardless of all that, I can assure you that I would not be doing the Mormon thing unless God himself had told me to do so and gave me signs. Otherwise, I couldn’t be bothered with the whole so-called Mormon dilemma. But, as it is, God gave me too much to deny his work through Joseph Smith.

It really is true.

Paul O

Paul--that is real nice for you, but can you see that it does nothing for anyone else? (no disrespect intended) Unless you can provide some rational basis for your conclusion, taking your word that you have been visited by God takes none of us anywhere. I've had a lot of emotional experiences that don't necessarily come from a super natural being (I'm not saying you haven't--its just that many people are aware that emotions and feelings and even visions and impressions don't necessarily have external origins) That may mean a lot to you, but they are YOURS, not ours. They only become ours if you can provide some proof, any evidence at all, other than your word, that they are from a source other than your own imagination.

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

I can’t prove anything to anyone unless perhaps I perform a sign or a miracle before your very eyes, but that might not even be enough. Besides, I’m only really concerned with my own skin and if others fail to understand the truthfulness of the restored gospel-- I’m not going to loose any sleep over it. Besides, I’m self centered and really only care about my self, and my family too, a little, anyway. I have what I have and I’m very fortunate to have rose to that level. I hope you can do the same, someday. If not-- oh well. It's not my loss.

Paul O

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Mar 18 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

I can’t prove anything to anyone unless perhaps I perform a sign or a miracle before your very eyes, but that might not even be enough. Besides, I’m only really concerned with my own skin and if others fail to understand the truthfulness of the restored gospel-- I’m not going to loose any sleep over it. Besides, I’m self centered and really only care about my self, and my family too, a little, anyway. I have what I have and I’m very fortunate to have rose to that level. I hope you can do the same, someday. If not-- oh well. It's not my loss.

Paul O

Pride goeth before the ________. You fill in the blank.

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

I'll be sure to watch my step. Thanks for the heads-up.

Paul O

[Cal]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 18 2004, 07:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 18 2004, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Mar 18 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

I can’t prove anything to anyone unless perhaps I perform a sign or a miracle before your very eyes, but that might not even be enough. Besides, I’m only really concerned with my own skin and if others fail to understand the truthfulness of the restored gospel-- I’m not going to loose any sleep over it. Besides, I’m self centered and really only care about my self, and my family too, a little, anyway. I have what I have and I’m very fortunate to have rose to that level. I hope you can do the same, someday. If not-- oh well. It's not my loss.

Paul O

Pride goeth before the ________. You fill in the blank.

As to the sign you can supposedly provide--try me! Yeah, I though so.

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

Be careful what you wish for. Don't underestimate Heavenly Father's ability to hear your every word, as he will test your resolve, in his own time and the place of his choosing.

Paul O

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal -- To be fair, I don't think Outshined was accusing me of "seeking a sign":

I don't know if this fits this thread or not

Although it is true that the line is fine between a sign ["the rain in Spain falls mainly on the slain!" pipes the little animated paperclip on my MS Word program. "Updated Age of Terrorism version, that is."] and a "confirmation."

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal --

Which leads to this condundrum: if the BoM is supposed to be a second witness of Jesus, that implies that one witness (the bible, I guess) is not convincing enough to justify believing in Jesus. We have to have another before we believe in Jesus. If that is true, then how can you believe in Jesus enough to have the faith required by Moroni 10? Sounds like a Catch 22 to me. It results in : To get a witness that the BoM is true, you have to believe in Jesus, but before you can believe in Jesus, you need the second witness of the BoM; but before you can believe in it (or Moroni 10) you have to get the confirmation that the BoM itself is true?

Isn't that the truth. Whenever someone suggested that maybe I just didn't have enough faith, or wasn't worthy enough, for a M10 confirmation, it struck me -- what's the point of a Savior if you basically have to save yourself -- i.e. live a perfect life -- to be worthy of the gift of saving faith in Him? That can't be how it works.

And all the time I was straining for a confirmation in high school, college, mission, post-mission, etc., I was a by-gosh monk compared to my testifying peers. (OK, a Renaissance monk, but still ... I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No Pope Alexander parties for me. Really.)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Mar 18 2004, 08:15 PM

Cal,

Be careful what you wish for. Don't underestimate Heavenly Father's ability to hear your every word, as he will test your resolve, in his own time and the place of his choosing.

Paul O

It must be so nice to read the mind of God! Frankly, I'm more worried about that fall you are about to take.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:35 PM

Frankly, I'm more worried about that fall you are about to take.

Cal,

You’re not worried. You’re just saying that. You don’t believe that man can fall. At least, I surmise that from things you said in your other posts.

See, I caught you. It’s real easy to do.

Paul O

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Mar 18 2004, 08:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Mar 18 2004, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:35 PM

Frankly, I'm more worried about that fall you are about to take.

Cal,

You’re not worried. You’re just saying that. You don’t believe that man can fall. At least, I surmise that from things you said in your other posts.

See, I caught you. It’s real easy to do.

Paul O

Now he is a mind reader! Impressive!

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:48 PM

Now he is a mind reader! Impressive!

Not really. It was easy. You don't realize how easy it is to see right through you. No special credit is due me.

You don't worry about my salvation. That's a fact.

Paul O

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Mar 18 2004, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Mar 18 2004, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:48 PM

Now he is a mind reader! Impressive!

Not really. It was easy. You don't realize how easy it is to see right through you. No special credit is due me.

You don't worry about my salvation. That's a fact.

Paul O

I guess your gift has rubbed off on me, because I can see right through you too!

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 18 2004, 09:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 18 2004, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Mar 18 2004, 09:17 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:48 PM

Now he is a mind reader! Impressive!

Not really. It was easy. You don't realize how easy it is to see right through you. No special credit is due me.

You don't worry about my salvation. That's a fact.

Paul O

I guess your gift has rubbed off on me, because I can see right through you too!

Cal,

What gift? What is it that you see in me that I have not revealed? You have no gift.

You say one thing and you mean another. That is twofaced in my view. You are not at all concerned with my salvation. I called you on that and you were left speechless.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Paul...as i see it, you took the first offensive move here and then became a little rude...it is now escalating...lets settle down or I will have to waste a perfectly good thread by closing it...

[Paul Osborne]

Peace,

Yes, I am a little rude with people that try and tear down the LDS faith through the means of tricks and lies. I have demonstrated how Cal is doing this. It is an evil and reprehensible thing to try and tear down the faith of the Latter-day Saints. Elder Mark E. Peterson more or less said those people are faith killers and the Book of Mormons says they will be thrust down into hell unless they repent.

Is this an LDS board? I’m not going to stand by and watch people tear down my faith by means of deceit. I’d rather get booted than not stand up for what I believe in and point out the truth.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

I think there is a great difference between someone trying to tear down the church, and someone stating their opinion or not agreeing with someone elses opinion.

I think we can all learn some great things here as we have already...but taking offense is really not productive.

I am going to PM you and discuss this further...

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 19 2004, 01:52 AM

I think there is a great difference between someone trying to tear down the church, and someone stating their opinion or not agreeing with someone elses opinion.

I think we can all learn some great things here as we have already...but taking offense is really not productive.

I am going to PM you and discuss this further...

Peace,

Don't bother. I understand the restored gospel and scriptures and you are being politically correct in your effort to kiss up against the world. The Book of Mormon is the standard by which we measure the world being the keystone of our religion. There are those who seek to tear down Zion. If you can't see it-- well-- I guess you can't see it.

Paul O