Set A Beggar On Horseback,

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 13 2004, 08:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 13 2004, 08:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2004, 08:46 PM

I'm not the devil's advocate.  But I do think I'm the devil's associate.

"Associate" has so many connotations. Does he have you on retainer?

No. Salary.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2004, 12:00 PM

Although we are counseled to apply the scriptures to our own times, I do think some scriptures have greater relevance to some circumstances than others. For example, the crushing of political dissent in Alma 46 and 47 may have been proper among the Nephites, but would not be proper in a modern democracy.

The Mosiah 4:17 scripture was both written and translated in a society that lacked any real public provision for the poor. It's one thing to withhold help from a beggar who has no other means of support. In that circumstance, regardless of whether the beggar has brought his misfortune on himself or is just a victim of bad luck, he'll literally starve. It's another thing when it's a matter of a person who's taking advantage of the public's generosity towards the less fortunate -- and after receiving all the help available, taking advantage of you. Giving to such a person encourages his lifestyle, which is worse for him than a more productive one would be.

That's the reason the Church discourages visitors to Temple Square from giving to the panhandlers there. Instead, they are encouraged to donate to organizations that help the homeless get back on their feet.

I still stand by my interpretation of the Mosiah injunction to essentially not try to decide for oneself whether the beggar deserves my money or not. I think this is what the scripture is saying. Just give and let the lord decide.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal -- Look at Mosiah 4:17 with the preceding verse:

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

The bolded passage in verse 16 makes it clear that this scripture is referring to a situation where rejecting a beggar's petition has the effect of "turn[ing] him out to perish." I suggest that if I decline to give a buck to a 25-year-old guy on a freeway offramp with a "Vietnam Vet -- Hungry" sign (do the math there), I'm not turning him out to perish. There are plenty of means for him to be supported, including agencies and charities that I support (both voluntarily and through substantial taxation). Turning a man out to perish is one thing; turning him out to have to go beerless is another.

The bolded passage in verse 17 makes it clear that it's an improper motive to withhold one's substance from a beggar because "his punishments are just." That's different from withholding a donation because it is reasonable to conclude that such a donation will do the beggar more harm than good. The former motive judges the beggar's character and desert, and is improper; the latter is a judgment not as to the beggar, but as to the wisdom of one's own action, which is the kind of judgment that people are required to exercise.

[Guest Starsky]

Excellent point PD.

I think it reasonable to assume that the principle taught in:

Moro. 7: 18

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

would be of use in these situations.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 14 2004, 11:52 AM

Turning a man out to perish is one thing; turning him out to have to go beerless is another.

Just what kind of beer are we talking about?

Are you referring to a mega mass-produce beer like Old Milwaukee or a Hoegaarden Original White Ale?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 14 2004, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 14 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 14 2004, 11:52 AM

Turning a man out to perish is one thing; turning him out to have to go beerless is another.

Just what kind of beer are we talking about?

Are you referring to a mega mass-produce beer like Old Milwaukee or a Hoegaarden Original White Ale?

LOL...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 14 2004, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 14 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 14 2004, 11:52 AM

Turning a man out to perish is one thing; turning him out to have to go beerless is another.

Just what kind of beer are we talking about?

Are you referring to a mega mass-produce beer like Old Milwaukee or a Hoegaarden Original White Ale?

I don't think I've ever given a beggar even enough for a Schlitz.

[Guest]

O.K. you guys, Whats wrong with the hand up, instead of a hand out. If your not comfortable with that then why not offer clothes, food, directions to the nearest shelter or simply consult oyu Bishop when faced with an extemem case - Like a child. In my personal opinion giving money is not the right thing to do for anyone in need unless you are the one who decides where the money goes. But you could always pay for a nights stay in a motel, or buy some groceries, or give outgrown or unneeded clothing. There is more we can do than just give money. Giving money dosen't always help in the way it may be needed, and it seems kind of the easy way to make us feel luke we've done something great.