Pre-existence

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I had a thought this morning on the way to work. LDS Doctrine tells us that Lucifer rebelled and fought against Jehovah and was cast into Hell.

But the reason he rebelled was because he wanted to take away our free will...our free will to sin.

So now we follow Jehovah's plan, which is also Elohim's plan...we are tested during our lives to resist sin.

But...who tempts us to sin? Lucifer...now known as Satan.

So....

What if Lucifer had not rebelled?

What if he had just backed down and let Jehovah lead us?

Would we have no temptation to sin? Would man not be tempted to sin, if Satan was not there?

This opens a few more questions:

1. Did God plan for Lucifer to rebel, so that he would have a tempter for us to stuggle with? It seems God's plan requires sin, right?

2. If God planned for Lucifer to rebel, why didn't he just assign him to tempt us...instead of starting a war in heaven?

3. If God did not plan for Lucifer to rebel, what was his original plan? For temptation to just exist without a devil?

In conclusion, it seems that God's plan would not work without a devil. So did Lucifer really rebel, or was he just following God's will when he rebelled?

Your thoughts?

[AFDaw]

I believe that God knew his sons well enough to KNOW that Lucifer would rebel. Not that he made him do it, just that he knew he would. I also don't believe that Lucifer is the only one who tempts us. I believe the 1/3 host of heaven that were also cast out can also tempt us. I don't think it's necessarily that God's plan REQUIRES sin, just that it requires us to choose our own paths, and that requires us having to chose right from wrong.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

In 1870, the Prussian chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, needed a war to help unite the various German states into a German empire. So he goaded the French emperor Napoleon III into declaring war on Prussia over a telegram which Bismarck had edited to make it look like the king of Prussia had been rude to the French ambassador.

The French declared war, the Prussians and their allies beat them to the draw and stomped them, and the various German states met in the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles and proclaimed the German Empire. Nobody understood what Bismarck had done for quite some time.

It's an interesting question -- Did God pull a Bismarck on Lucifer, placing him in a situation where God knew he'd rebel? The New Testament warns against putting people in situations where they're likely to commit sin. (I can't remember the exact passage; I think it says something about not making your brother to offend.) Is this another case of God, like Congress, being exempt from the rules that he ordains for everyone else?

[AFDaw]

As long as Lucifer's free agency wasn't taken away (which it wasn't) then he was still able to CHOOSE what he would do. All God did was ask for a plan, Lucifer spoke up...he put himself in the situation. God never forced him to do anything.

[Guest Starsky]

I think it goes back to the 'compound' in one principle taught in 2 Nephi. If there was no Satan, we would have still been tempted by the things which took Lucifer down in the first place.

We forget there was a choice already up there in the pre-existence and Lucifer...without a 'Satan' to motivate him in his choices...made bad choices....

Evil has always existed because good has always existed......Lucifer just showed us what not to do...and why.

[AFDaw]

Interesting point Peace.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Evil has always existed because good has always existed......Lucifer just showed us what not to do...and why.

So all evil does not come from Satan necessarily.

If Lucifer had not rebelled there would just be a natural tendency for people to sin when they came to live on this earth? But wouldn't that natural tendency exist only after The Fall, when humans were given Free Agency? And without Satan, what external force would tempt Adam to disobey God, which would cause the Fall?

The Fall was required by God, so it would have had to happen with or without Satan.

Any thoughts on that?