The Roman-jewish War And The Great Apostasy

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I do not know if any LDS member (General Authority or scholar from FARMS and FAIR) have investigated the doctrine known as Preterism. For those who are not aware of the doctrine of preterism, it is the Eschatological view that when Christ gave the Olivet Discourse, it was meant for the lifetime of the apostles.

Now, while I have some of my questions and doubts to the veracity of the LDS Church (having been a member myself), I was reading on the main website for Preterist Archives and came across the following article The Effects of the Fall of Jersualem On Christianity by J. Julius Scott, Jr., Wheaton College Graduate school.

Here is a portion of that article that brings this question to my mind:

Traditional Accounts of the Fate of Jerusalem Christians at 70 C.E.

In the NT Luke 20:21 ff seems to recast Mk 13:14 ff (cf. Matt 24:15 ff) so as to make certain reference to the overthrow of Jerusalem. However, difficulty in assigning an exact date to the writing of the Third Gospel(3) makes it impossible to know just where the saying fits into the history of the Jerusalem Christian community. If the woman of Rev 12 represents the Jerusalem Church, her flight into the wilderness (vs 6) may also reflect the experiences of this Christian group around 70 C.E.

Outside the NT Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus, says

The people of the church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Peraea which is called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ migrated from Jerusalem (EH III:5,1 ff).

Epiphanius (Haereses XXIX:7; XXX:2; De Mesuris and Ponderibus XV:3) cites a similar tradition. Each writer specifically mentions Pella as the final destination of the refugees. Epiphanius traces the origin of later Christian groups in Decapolis and Coele-Syria, including the sects of the Nazarenes and of the Ebionites, to this flight from the Romans just before 70 C.E.

On the basis of these statements it has been assumed that sometime before the final overthrow, some Jerusalem Christians, either in mass, small groups or as individuals, withdrew from the city to places of refuge, primarily in Transjordan. The exact time of this exodus has been variously placed just after the death of James, the Relative of Jesus (ca. 62 C.E. -- Lietzmann and Jocz), following the Jewish victory over Cestius Gallus (66/67 C.E. -- Weizsaecker, Elliott-Binns, and F.F. Bruce), or even later in the period following the temporary withdrawal of Vespasian to await developments in Rome (68/69 C.E. -- Harnack and Ehrhardt).

Additional evidence suggests that following the war, Jerusalem and other Jewish Christians returned to the city and reorganized their fellowship. Talmudic and other Jewish sources indicate the presence of such groups throughout Palestine and the contempt and hatred directed toward them by their non-Christian countrymen. Eusebius and Epiphanius disagree about the size and importance of the post-war Jewish-Jerusalem Church. The former says that "there was a very important Church, composed of Jews, which existed until the siege of the city under Hadrian" (The Proof of the Gospel III:5,124[d]) and gives a list of bishops who reigned in the city during that time (EH V:5). Epiphanius (De Mesuris et Ponderibus IV) implies that there was little more than a struggling, insignificant church on the site of old Jerusalem between 70 and 132.

S.G.F. Brandon's Criticism of the Traditional Accounts

The validity of the traditional account is vigorously debated, primarily as a result of S.G.F. Brandon's highly controversial work, The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church.(4) Brandon argues that in spite of the claims of ancient writers, there is ample reason to believe that the Church of Jerusalem "identified itself too closely with the nation from which it had originally emerged and in Israel's virtual annihilation it subsequently shared."(5) Both because of the nature of the pre-70 C.E. church and consequences of the Jewish overthrow, not only did Christianity in its primitive form cease to exist, but Christianity as a whole was subsequently "virtually reborn."

Brandon's conclusions depend heavily upon his methodological commitments which permit him to reconstruct, as he recognizes, a revived "Tuebingen School" view of early Church history.(6) The NT documents, he argues, show that the conflict between the Jewish-Jerusalem view of Christianity (of which James, the Relative of Jesus, was the leader) staunchly opposed that propounded by Paul. As a result of Paul's arrest, the Jerusalem Christians were, between 55 and 65, virtually unopposed in promoting and spreading their gospel. Paulinism was all but stamped out. The 70 C.E. catastrophe and the elimination of the Jewish-Jerusalem form of Christianity permitted the resurgence and eventual victory of Paulinism.

What is interesting is that I have come across the debate that Mainstream Christianity today is what is referred to as "Paulinism Christianity", which essential means that majority of the doctrines of Christianity today as we see it and possibly understand it came from the Apostle Paul.

The LDS Church has the claim that Early Christianity went into Apostasy, however the consensus is when exactly the Great Apostasy occured, however my question is this: If the Apostasy of the Early Church occured, could it have occured at the time of Jerusalem's destruction? Which is 70 AD - and Revelation 12 being that of the Christian Church being taken away from the earth? If this is true, then I have more reasons to reconsider the LDS Doctrines Claims and teachings.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I cannot speak for the General Authorities, but I know that all of the New Testament professors I know of at BYU give a brief summary and extrapolation of the Pella prophecy. Although we don't know the exact source or time of the prophecy, we have verified through various sources thata large number, if not all of the Christians in Jerusalem fled to mainly Pella. Some sources go so far as to say not even one died in the attack on the Holy City because they had already packed up and left, heeding the prophecy. This is usually taught to emphasize the importance of prophecy and heeding it, even when we might not understand fully.

In regards to the apostacy, it certainly effects it even greater. However, the Apostasy, from the texts of the New Testament itself, was already well underway in some communities. This dispersal would only have spread the infection further as refugees took residence with other communities and spread their ideas. Additionally, losing the temple, a central part for many Jewish-Christians, would have further alienated them and led to changes within. Perhaps you could look at the sacking of Jerusalem and the Pella exodus as a coup de grace for at least the Jerusalem Jewish-Christians themselves. I would be interested in further research to the effects on those communities during this tumultous period myself.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

What is even more interesting (and I haven't given it anymore thought until just now when I was browsing the internet last night and reading some information on the Preterist Archives site) was that I had come across something where Peter was disputing with someone who was set against him.

If I understand another little unknown debate is that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter were at odds with each other doctrinally. Peter being the closest to Christ and Paul proclaiming that he had met the Resurrected Christ. Majority of the texts of the New Testament were written by the Apostle Paul, yet we only have the Gospel of John, the epistles of John and the Revelation of John and two epistles of Peter. Yet majority of the texts are from Paul.

As I understand the debate, it goes something like this: Paul invented his version of Christianity. His version of Christianity was at odds with Peter. Paul teaching to the Gentiles and Jewish Christians, Peter teaching to the Jewish Christians. The debate centers around the idea that Peter thought the Jews were to be converted alone and not the Gentiles. Paul, being the missionary unto the Gentiles took up the title Apostle and wrote to the Churches he had established. While I disagree with the assertion that Paul may have invented Christianity, the question still arises why were there no more documents from the other Apostles closer to Christ than that of the Apostle Paul?

I will have to investigate this and study this out, but my overall consensus is that Paul did not invent modern and Mainstream Christianity, and that he was a true apostle, but that because of the persecuation and the warning of the Early Church being in the Last Days of Judgment upon Israel as a Nation, Culture and People that the Early Christian Church went into "Apostasy" by going into the Wilderness, awaiting to be brought back out of the wilderness. If that makes any sense.

[rickg]

"Eschatological"

No wonder I can't follow your threads. My vocabulary isn't THAT big.

Ok. I can take the hint. Stepping out now.

BTW, no biggie to me, but these threads would probably get more responses over at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

"Eschatological"

No wonder I can't follow your threads. My vocabulary isn't THAT big.

Ok. I can take the hint. Stepping out now.

BTW, no biggie to me, but these threads would probably get more responses over at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/

Eschatology is the Study of End Times Prophecies. Preterism is also known as "Realized Eschatology" in that it claims that the Second coming of Christ occured in 70 AD at the Destruction of Jerusalem. I hold to the Partial-Preteristic viewpoint in that some of the End Times prophecies of the Bible were definitely fulfilled in 70 AD, however it was a typification of the true Coming of Christ in Judgment the Second Time. I don't believe that Christ came in 70 AD, I believe the Judgment of God on the First Century Jews did however. This is substantiated historically.

And unfortunately, I can't access the Mormon Apologetics Board. I have enough time keeping up with www.writingforums.com message forum, this forum, writerscafe.org and the absolute writers forum, plus various msn and yahoo groups I belong to lol.... In fact, I am disengaging myself from much internet activity and getting focused on my writing again.

[hagoth7]

Eschatology is the Study of End Times Prophecies. Preterism is also known as "Realized Eschatology" in that it claims that the Second coming of Christ occured in 70 AD at the Destruction of Jerusalem. I hold to the Partial-Preteristic viewpoint in that some of the End Times prophecies of the Bible were definitely fulfilled in 70 AD, however it was a typification of the true Coming of Christ in Judgment the Second Time. I don't believe that Christ came in 70 AD, I believe the Judgment of God on the First Century Jews did however. This is substantiated historically.

And unfortunately, I can't access the Mormon Apologetics Board. I have enough time keeping up with www.writingforums.com message forum, this forum, writerscafe.org and the absolute writers forum, plus various msn and yahoo groups I belong to lol.... In fact, I am disengaging myself from much internet activity and getting focused on my writing again.

Hi Seattle. I've studied a number of schools of prophetic interpretation, including preterism. Although there is some overlap with partial preterism, several of my view of Bible prophecy align with historicism.

Would be interested in things you have read, on your take on Rev 12, and how you view all this in light of the Restoration.